Kim Howard  00:00

Welcome to the Let’s Talk EMDR podcast brought to you by the EMDR International Association, or EMDRIA. I’m your host, Kim Howard. iI this episode, we talk with EMDR, certified therapist and consultant, Christine MacInnis, about EMDR therapy for caregivers of neurodivergent clients. Let’s get started. Today. We’re speaking with EMDR certified therapist and consultant Christine MacInnis, to discuss how EMDR therapy can help caregivers for newer divergent clients. Thank you, Christine, for being here today. We are so happy that you said yes.

 

Christine MacInnis  00:39

Oh, I’m so excited to be here. I love talking about this topic.

 

Kim Howard  00:43

Christine, tell us about your path to becoming an EMDR therapist.

 

Christine MacInnis  00:46

It’s kind of funny. I had a family member who took EMDR as a treatment protocol and raved about it, and, you know, they’re like, why don’t you do that? You should do that. And I was like, I know, I’ve been looking at it. I’ve been thinking about it. And then the pandemic hit, and I had already signed up for a local training that was going to be in my area got canceled, and then I was all bummed, because I’m thinking, hey, we’re going to need this pandemic is kind of traumatic to everybody. And thankfully, EMDR consulting switched to virtual very quickly. I mean, one of their very first virtual trainings was with Paula Merucci in EMDR Chicago, and I was so lucky. They are an amazing trainer. Their team was amazing. Paula is just one of the best in the business, and they were so vibrant online. For someone like me, who’s ADHD and autistic, I get really, like, overwhelmed and shut down or bored, and I’m on my phone and I’m not paying attention, so the training online has to be really good for me to engage. And Paula is just so…she’s incredible. Anything from her is amazing.

 

Kim Howard  01:48

That’s really good. I didn’t work for the association when the pandemic hit. I came in at the end of that first summer in 2020 and but they had to switch gears pretty quickly so that members could have the resources that they needed to offer virtual therapy, because I’m pretty sure most people were not doing that at the time. It mean, they were probably a small percentage, but I feel like most people, everything was in person. The whole concept of virtual Sure, did we have video conferencing? Absolutely. Had anyone heard of Zoom? Maybe not so much, you know? And then all of a sudden, everybody’s on a Zoom or they’re on a Microsoft Teams, and so that became the norm. And so I’m really glad that you were still able to power through during the pandemic and get the training that you needed so you could add this to your practice. That’s great. Yeah,

 

Christine MacInnis  02:30

I was super grateful. And also who I got it through. It just was luck. I didn’t know who they were at the time. I didn’t know really much about EMDR, so I just feel like I fell into magic, into my lap, like I just got so lucky with who I was trained on.

 

Kim Howard  02:43

That’s great. What’s your favorite part of working with EMDR therapy, Christine?

 

Christine MacInnis  02:46

The magic it is. You know, as much as I understand the neuroscience behind it, and I love a deep dive, actually, into how the brain works and why it works, I still kind of suspend that when I’m in session. And I think of it as alchemy, having a person who is just so hopeless and so desperate, because I work mostly with complex trauma, so they really, by the time they get to me, they’ve tried everything. They’re they’re really at the end of their rope, and they’re thinking, I’m never going to feel even remotely better, not even slightly, and to be able to say to them, Hey, I can’t wait to see where you are in a year from now. They just kind of look at me, like, really? And I’m like, Yep, you’re gonna see it’s gonna be different. And it is, it’s it always is. And so I’ve left sessions like crying just being like, so grateful that there is this modality that can provide that hope and can heal. So I think it’s just the magic of it.

 

Kim Howard  03:44

Good answer. Thank you, Christine. What are the specific complexities or challenges during EMDR therapy for treating caregivers?

 

Christine MacInnis  03:50

Caregivers are a lot. They hold so much stuff, and I’m talking today about caregivers of neurodivergent kiddos and teens and maybe even young adults who haven’t, you know, flown the nest, but I feel like this really could be applied to anybody who’s a caregiver, a caregiver of somebody with severe health issues. For example, it is an overwhelming process to be not only caring for them, but you’re also tied to them emotionally. So I think one of the biggest challenges is their historical trauma and generational trauma that can be leaped on top of all of it, I feel like that adds to all the issues that people have with being caregivers. They’re not just coming in with everything they’re holding for that person. And when you’re working with a kiddo who society believes is not going to be successful, you’re going to have all of that going on in your brain, and you’re going to be terrified, so you’re going to be holding that to start. Now add in historical trauma, or their own trauma from their childhood. Let’s say they grew up in a chaotic household where everybody was yelling and screaming, and now they have a child with say. PDA, who has outburst because their nervous system is always activated. How do you manage that? If your trigger is screaming and yelling and you can’t handle it, so you got both problems going on at the same time, so I feel like it’s understanding all of it. So history taking is essential. If you don’t know, for instance, that your client, their parent was a Holocaust survivor, and survive the camps, and they hold on to all of that, you have to know all the nuances of their life to be able to help them. So it’s complex. It’s not the easiest work, I think.

 

Kim Howard  05:33

Yeah, no, it’s definitely not. And we’ve talked about this on the podcast before. We’ve talked about generational trauma and how that is a legitimate thing and how it can occur. But we also talked about how growing up, you don’t realize what happens in your family until you’re maybe around other people and you see how other people’s families interact. And you’re like, Oh, my family was really everything was really healthy or good, or as healthy as it could be, and, oh, maybe not so much and so and how you carry that forward into all of your decision making. It wasn’t until a few years ago, and I’ve mentioned this before. This is not news. My father passed away in 2019 my mother passed away in 2002 but my father was an alcoholic, and he spent the last probably 40 years of his life completely sober. But there was a time when, you know, I experienced that with him, and I didn’t realize that children of alcoholics are either I’m a little bit of a control freak, not a lot, but a little bit. And the reason that they’re like that is because they couldn’t rely on the parent who was an alcoholic to deliver whatever it was, you know. And I thought, Oh, that’s really interesting, because, like, when I cook, I don’t want anybody helping me. You want to sous chef for me, but then I want you to leave the kitchen, and I want you to let me cook. I don’t want you like around me in my space. And then I thought, Oh, I wonder if that’s related to the way I grew up with my dad, you know? And so that’s just a small, small example of how we carry that stuff forward. And so, yeah, you’re right. The history is it’s really matters, and…

 

Christine MacInnis  06:53

It really does, yeah, and again, an understanding that they’re going to be suffering with that, that that alone is going to be traumatic and difficult, because you’re right. Most people don’t understand that they were affected. They think, Oh, I’m fine, I’m okay. And then they come in telling me about their kid, and they’re like, and I can and this is this, and this is this, and I go back and I say, so what was your childhood like? And suddenly it all comes out, abuse, alcoholism, sexual abuse, sometimes major, major trauma. And I’m always like, well, the kiddo is, is giving you, you know, giving you a run. But this isn’t really what it is. It’s more you’ve mentioned PDA briefly.

 

Kim Howard  07:34

Can you explain what that is to the audience who may not know what that is? Because some of our listeners are also non therapists, so they may not know what that is,

 

Christine MacInnis  07:41

Yes, and it’s also very new, at least here in the United States, so I’m glad you gave me the opportunity to explain it. PDA stands for persistent demand for autonomy, if you’re looking at it from a more affirming lens, but the actual term would develop was pathological demand avoidance, and it was developed by a researcher in 1996 in the UK, who found that it fell under the autism spectrum of behaviors, but also could be a standalone type of situation. And basically it comes about because the person has an extreme, and I say extreme overload from uncertainty. So anything providing a degree of uncertainty will cause the nervous system to go into flight fight. And so for children, flight fight looks like literally running away. So you know eloping, as they call it, in schools, where they literally leave or fighting, kicking, screaming, yelling, using profanity. It is because they’re literally so terrified their body goes into this state of overwhelm, and it’s extremely difficult because you’re you’re trying to manage it. But what used to happen with with kiddos like this is they’d be diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder, and the protocols for that are the exact thing that puts the person into the overwhelm of their nervous system. So a lot is a lot of research has happened, I would say more in the UK. PDA, North America here and the United States is phenomenal. Shout out to Diane Gould, who’s their their leader, and all the crew there. They’re incredible. I took their level one two and training for therapists, and I realized, Oh, that was me as a kid. Oh, that explains some things. Oh, this is why I like working for myself. This is why being a school counselor in schools for so long was so hard, and I was always angry and always upset, because there was constantly, first of all, uncertainty and working in a job like that, but also a lot of demands that were illogical to me and made me feel like they were not helping or that they were actually harming kids, and for someone like me, that would lead to sometimes outbursts, sometimes me yelling in a meeting, sometimes me really losing my cool, and I shamed myself so much for it, I felt such overwhelm and blame that I was the bad person and everybody. Be looking at me, and then bosses would call me in and I’d have to have the conversation. And you know what? It wasn’t me. It was something I was struggling with, and I actually some of the things I actually had a right to be angry about, because they really were harmful and not helping our kids. And so I’ve grown a lot in the process. And I thank PDA North America and the UK Society of PDA too, for just their education, because it has changed me. I don’t look at myself as damaged or problematic. I look at myself as having something that I have to manage as an adult. I can’t just have outbursts. I can’t be beating people up that would not lead to good things. But I can forgive myself when I have a fight with a good friend who, who I feel safe with, and I kind of blow up. They know me, and they understand me, and they they support me and get it. And so I’ve learned the spaces where I can allow that to happen, and the spaces where I have to mask, and I just can’t even imagine, you know, kiddos with that expression who it’s really severe to, who really can’t control that feeling, and they’re terrified. It is literally the same as if a tiger attacked them. That’s the only way to describe that.

 

Kim Howard  11:07

I mean, I’m glad you you figured out what was wrong, because I think when there’s anything wrong with us, physically, emotionally, mentally, we just want to know what the cause is and what the solution is and how we can manage whatever the issue is. So a lot of times, you know, if your foot hurts, well, you know you gotta go to the doctor and your foot hurts, but when it’s emotional or it’s mental health, you don’t know where to go and you don’t know what to do, and you don’t know what the cause is. And so it’s good that this group is growing and become active and has done that research so that diagnoses can be used to help kids, teenagers, adults, whoever needs it. So I’m grateful that you were able to find that.

 

Christine MacInnis  11:48

Yeah, me too, and I’m grateful I’m now able to help parents of kids who are suffering because some of the things they were taught to do are really dangerous. ABA therapy is actually the opposite of giving one their autonomy. It’s taking it away. So you’re not going to improve. It sounds outlandish, because parents, you know, the thing that actually does help these kids is giving them a lot of autonomy and low demand pairing and not making punishments based on nothing. So you know, if you look at most of the ways we were raised, it was you were seen and not heard. You had no collaboration and punishments. It was punishments. There was no real like actually learning from things. It was more like you did this wrong, you’re bad, you’re in trouble. There was no discussion of why. So you really never learned why lying was bad. You were just told it was bad, and then felt shame if you ever did it again. So it is kind of a new way of understanding parenting, I think, for all people and all kids.

 

Kim Howard  12:48

Unfortunately, children do not come with a manual when you decide to have children, whether you adopt or certainty or have your own. Yeah, they don’t come with you know, that’s “What to expect when you’re expecting,” [book] and “What to expect during the toddler years.” [book] And then it all falls off the map. And you’re like, wait a minute, I need a guide for the rest of this time, you know. And then as they they don’t need you as much physically when they’re younger, but as they grow up, they they need you more emotionally. And then you’re trying to take this tiny human and make them into somebody who can live in society and be, you know, and help and be productive. And you’re like, Whoa, that is such a huge responsibility. So I am…I’m really glad that all the work that you guys do with parents and and children. So thank you guys. We’ve talked about all the negative stuff. Let’s talk about something positive. What successes have you seen using EMDR therapy for this population?

 

Christine MacInnis  13:37

Ah, well, you just described exactly what they go through. You just said the key word productive, right? We have to raise these individuals to be productive members of society. We got to fit capitalism. They have to be able to be successful. They have to live on their own. They have so the list that the parents are put under that they are expected to do for all children is unrealistic and is going to cause great harm because they can’t meet these goals, not in fourth grade. So if you’re looking at a caregiver of of a child who has executive functioning, maybe PDA profile where they’re having outbursts, or they’re eloping from school, or the terror in a parent, and the shame that they’re not doing a good job is overwhelming. So this is trauma, right? It’s the same as any other trauma we go through. Sometimes it’s little T, sometimes it’s big T, and so this helps this population, because we’re actually doing EMDR on that, not what they can’t fix and change, not their child, not what’s happening with them. Because really, once we start understanding their neurotype and how they are and who they are as human beings, they blossom, and they become really okay. And I reassure parents, first of that, that this is going to help. I promise it’s going to. Know, but they first have to get away from the societal ideas that they need to raise this perfectly successful human being, and it’s a constant comparison game. You know, as a parent, we’re all Yeah, you know. And I have a college senior right now, you want to talk about the comparison game? Oh, God, I can’t hear my kid got in here.

 

Kim Howard  15:19

Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. We had, we had one of each. We had one who went to college, and then she went back and got her master’s degree pretty quickly, actually. So she’s 25 with a master’s degree, or she’ll be 25 this year and then our son tried one semester of college, and he’s like, this is not for me. I’m going to just continue to work full time. He’s an auto mechanic. And so I did you I had to actually have, I actually had to have a child therapist tell me when my daughter was like six, that even though they came from the same DNA, they are two different people. And there was a light bulb moment for me as a parent, because I kept wondering like, Well, why are my kids not what is wrong with them? Why don’t they? You know, all the questions that you beat yourself up as a parent when you’re trying to raise them, and she’s like, they’re two different people. They may have share the same DNA, but they are two different entities. And I’m like, oh, okay, now I get it. So so it was a little easier to parent them at that point, because they’re not supposed to be exactly alike, even if they’re twins, right? They’re not supposed to be exact. And so that was really good and healthy for me to understand that so well

 

Christine MacInnis  16:23

and good for both your kids. I think, wow, both of them landed in very powerful careers. We can’t live. Oh yeah,

 

Kim Howard  16:31

we can’t and I, and I do have a friend who talked about social media to me a few years back, and he he goes, you know, social media is so sanitized. I mean, nobody is putting out all of the negative stuff that’s going in on in on their lives, on social media. They’re putting all the positive stuff and all it’s all whitewashed, you know, and it’s all flowers and, you know, sunshine and not every day in life is like flowers and sunshine and but, yeah, that whole competitive thing. I mean, unfortunately we have, as a society and as a as school systems, whether it’s public or private, we start that college conversation way too young. I’m sorry, but your seventh graders should, who’s 13, should not be thinking about college. Oh, they should not. It’s too they’re too young. They should not really have to worry and start thinking about that till they’re the older, maybe sophomore year, and start thinking about, well, maybe you know, what classes do you need to take that might get you into the school you want to go to? And what does that look like? And so if we’re just drilling it down further and further and further and put all these pressure on these kids, and it’s not necessary, you know? And so I think we as a society have to stop doing that. And the other piece, the other thing I have learned as a parent is, and it’s really hard when you’re especially when you’re raising teenagers, but you really gotta listen to what they’re telling you. I mean, yeah, I mean, our son told us in high school, he’s like, Well, I really want to go and I want to take this automotive track and do all these things and get my ASE ASE certification. And we’re like, no, no, you have to go on this track in high school because you have to go to college. But what did he end up doing? He ended up doing exactly what he’s obviously was going to do. He went out and he became an auto mechanic. We should have listened to him, you know, we just, we were so bent on, Oh, you gotta go to college, and you gotta realize, as a parent, it’s not for everybody. It’s really not.

 

Christine MacInnis  18:14

We are, we’re and again, I’m guilty. I was a school counselor who was part of that college going culture push, but I quickly pivoted when I realized I had a brother that didn’t do the traditional path, and he’s very successful now. He runs his own company. He’s fine, and yet he didn’t go to college. He had a learning disability, and he struggled. And so I quickly pivoted to include, you know, like the local culinary schools, or, you know, the automotive programs. We have an amazing welding program in our community college. So it is explaining to parents, even in my work, like your kids, not exactly like everybody else. But guess what? The best part is, your kid’s not exactly like everyone else. You find their strengths just like you know, the AIP model is like adaptive information processing, right? So it’s adaptive information processing about our kids and who they can be and their potential. A non verbal kid does have potential. It doesn’t mean that they’re not going to be and it’s not even non verbal, it’s, they don’t speak words out loud, they communicate. They communicate just fine. But our expectations are, oh, look, they’re not verbal. And it’s, it’s seen as this negative, and it’s awful. It’s absolutely awful because they’re communicating perfectly. We’re just not allowing them to because we want them to do it the way we think it should be done. And so teaching parents that, teaching them that you’re just, yeah, you’re gonna have to drown out a lot of society, I and sometimes it’s even drowning out family who are like, What are you doing? Why are you not throwing in a room right now? Because a kid has an outburst, but they know why the outburst is happening. There are unfamiliar surroundings they could set they saw that there was a new food on the table. It’s simple little things. It’s not that complicated. But for people who don’t know how to handle it, it’s go back to the old school. Punishment, throw them in their room, tell them take away their dinner. I mean, if you think about the draconian ways we did actually, and they were cruel, they were not correct, and they did not allow anyone to learn.

 

Kim Howard  20:13

Yeah, and well, I think that we also, as parents and as a society in general, believe that people are doing something on purpose, when that kind of behavior erupts, that they’re purposely acting that way. And sometimes it’s not, sometimes it is, yes, sometimes it might be happening that way, but a lot of times it’s really not. And so we kind of have to figure that out, like you said, you have to go to the root cause and figure out the why, and we don’t really take the time to do that a lot of times. So….

 

Christine MacInnis  20:40

Yeah, yep. And we don’t take the time to support the caregiver of the finding of the why we don’t that work, and we throw them in a support group, say, figure it out. And we don’t do trauma work on them. And I, you know, and I’ve done trauma work on caregivers of people who have had, you know, traumatic auto accidents, who have it is all kind of in the same vein, the expectations that develop they have to let go of them, the fact that they have to stop believing they can fix certain things, they have to let go of that. You know, there’s a long list of negative beliefs that develop from being a caregiver, but they’re never about the person that they’re caring for. Yet, in society, if you look around autism, speaks, an organization I do not support, loves to say, well, we can find a cure, a cure for what, who your person is. How about a cure for you right expectations and what you’re looking for? That’s my soapbox.

 

Kim Howard  21:32

That’s okay. You can be on your soapbox. Are there any myths that you would like to bust about working with EMDR therapy and caregivers for neurodivergent clients?

 

Christine MacInnis  21:40

Well, I think I just covered it that we’re not there to help them fix or change their kid. We’re there to help them deal with the societal pressure that comes from having a different, normed kid. And so, you know, the myth would be that I’m trying to fix that. I’m not trying to fix anything. I’m trying to support the nervous system of somebody who’s going to be activated on a regular basis heal their earlier childhood trauma so it doesn’t get triggered by this new situation, and hopefully help them acclimate to all of it. It’s not going to fix anything, really. It’s not going to change the whole situation. I mean, there’s lots of other psycho education that can help with that, but this is solely to support the nervous system of the caregiver, so that they can go back in there and do the hard work.

 

Kim Howard  22:25

What advice do you have for EMDR, therapist, listening on how they can help these kinds of clients? You touched on it, but the case, there’s anything else you want to add.

 

Christine MacInnis  22:33

Just please, I beg you get consultation and training. Don’t assume that you went to one training and you know it all that you got this. I think the greatest harm is done when we assume we know. Instead of asking more questions, and, like you said, with your teenager, really listening so it means listening to those with lived experience what it’s like, not expecting clients to all fall into the same categories. Someone who is like me, who’s autistic and ADHD might have a totally different presentation. I’m way more ADHD driven than autistic driven, where someone could be more autistic driven than ADHD driven, not assuming, because we’re functional on the outside, that we’re not struggling on the inside. Most of my struggles are very internal. I’m 55 so I spent many years masking before I really found out the full grasp of what my identity was. And so don’t assume because a person looks like they have it all together. Just like social media, we don’t, we don’t have it all together. There are many days I’m not functioning well at all. And I think that’s a myth that really, you know, therapists need to be aware of clients. Mask really well, and you need to really be there with them and say, hey, you know you don’t have to do that here. You can stem you can do whatever you need. You can walk around the room. You can you don’t have to do things the way everybody else has told you to do them and give them that safe space to be them.

 

Kim Howard  23:59

Good advice, Christine, thank you. What would you like people outside of the EMDR community to know about EMDR therapy with this population?

 

Christine MacInnis  24:08

That just like anybody else, EMDR is, you know, a very protocol driven type of process, but you’ve gotta break out of the protocol. And again, that doesn’t mean doing it differently. You’re still doing it the same way, but you’re adapting. You’re recognizing that certain ways that you would accommodate anyone with differing needs, you would accommodate with EMDR, it’s not going to be, you know, like it’s going to be completely different. It’s just understanding how to adapt it. And so I think that’s a big thing, is, if you’ve done EMDR, and you said, Oh, it didn’t work for me in my training, it didn’t work for me. I actually went to Paul the first day and said, I think I would have quit. I sat with my trainer. I didn’t feel anything. Everybody else is talking about how great it is. I don’t get it. And she asked a bunch of questions. And at that time, I knew I’d had survived a traumatic brain injury, another long story. For another day. And she’s like, Oh, you gotta go talk to Eric Bremer. He does this whole thing with that, and he knows what to do. So she sent me to one of the people in the group, and he showed me using a big body movement, moving my arms in and out fast, was a way to activate my, you know, my target. And I went back to the person I was working with I showed it to her, I said, this is what they said I have to do. And it worked. And I was like, whoa. And then I realized I’m going to have to adapt it for the people I work with….eye movements might not work. Might not be that easy. Okay, I gotta look at what do I have to adapt to make it work for the people I work with who are like me, and

 

Kim Howard  25:38

We’ve talked about this on the podcast before, so I’ll reiterate, in case anybody’s new therapy and finding medical doctors and all of those things is really you got to, first of all, you got to do your homework as a client, and you have to make sure you’re connecting with that therapist. Second of all, if one kind of therapy doesn’t work and you still need help, you got to find something else. I mean, I know that is almost like trying to find a needle in a haystack and but you know, you got to do that, because it’s not going to happen any other way. But the other thing is that you talked about, you know, when somebody comes into your into your room, you know, as a client, you guys have to customize your approach. Oh, you know, it’s, this is not like a cookie cutter therapy, just because, oh, I’m an EMDR therapist. Well, yeah, but you also have to adapt. Like you said, somebody with a TBI, the eye movements may not work for them, you know, it may cause them pain. They may have to do tapping, they may have to do the butterfly hug, whatever they’re going to do. You have to figure that out as a therapist, and so you guys are really customizing people’s experiences for everybody who’s coming in the door. So if you’re seeing 10 people a day, I don’t know how many people you see day, but if you’re seeing 10, you’ve got 10 different approaches, you know. So there’s a lot of work that goes into that, and so that’s a great reminder for you that you said that. So thank you for telling us that.

 

Christine MacInnis  26:50

Yeah, no. And I think it’s important to find that person who really does get you, and you know that they get you, especially being neurodivergent. If I’ve had so much harm from people through my whole life that have created shame for me that if I have a therapist that doesn’t have a form of neurodivergent, you know, type behaviors and understands like, what it’s like to be shame for them, I generally don’t connect very well. If they’re, you know, kind of confused or looking at at me like kind of a circus animal. I’m not going to feel safe.

 

Kim Howard  27:23

That would be bad. I wouldn’t want to be like that. Yeah, this person I’m working with, I don’t kind of spotlight. I’m good, thanks.

 

Christine MacInnis  27:29

Yeah, I want them to say, Oh, I get that too. Oh, I forget meetings all the time. Oh, I have that also, like, eat, that kind of confirmation that that what they’re seeing with me is normal. It’s not bizarre or out there?

 

Kim Howard  27:43

Yeah, absolutely. Christine, how do you practice cultural humility as an EMDR therapist?

 

Christine MacInnis  27:48

This one I have worked so hard on, I still do. I think that’s the key. It’s a daily process. There is no such thing as you take a class just like learning about neurodivergent populations. You don’t just take a class on cultural humility, to meet your legal and ethical standards, and then say, oops, I’m good. I don’t that anymore. I know my privilege. I know exactly where it lies. I know what blinders I hold. I find new ones every day, though. And so it’s checking it, it’s always checking it, and doing constant training on anti racism, doing trainings on all types of diversity, all types of disability, like really getting in there and getting in the trenches and learning about people and their experiences, and I’m just infinitely curious. I mean, I think the main gift I have in therapy is I love a story, and I love hearing people’s life stories, and I love learning about their experience. So I really try to just stay, you know, in that vein of curiosity, I always want to be curious, and I don’t want to assume I’m not perfect. I’m going to have harm, right? I’m going to do things that are going to harm clients or harm someone in a group. And the biggest thing I’ve learned is impact is everything. So you don’t go into an explanation. Oh, I didn’t mean that because I ADHD and I forget words and sentences sometimes, no, you say, oh my gosh, that sounded really condescending. I am so sorry. I apologize, and people invariably are shocked when I do it. And I think that is so sad. They’re used to the Oh no, no. I didn’t mean it like that. I meant it like this, and I did that for years, and relationships lost and friendships ended because of it. And so if I would say anything that I’ve really learned in my 55 years is impact matters, and just apologize, and maybe that’ll open the door to be able to give an explanation, because then, as an autistic person, I love an explanation, and I love getting into that, but maybe not. And you know what the healing is in the apology and understanding you harmed. So it’s, to me, it’s a daily process. It’s staying curious, but also being aware, being aware what’s harming people, especially what’s harming people right now.

 

Kim Howard  29:58

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Christine, do you have a favorite free EMDR related resource you would suggest, either for the public or other EMDR therapists?

 

Christine MacInnis  30:07

Well, I’m going to suggest one that I created for my crew of people that took my first training, which is a Facebook group. So if anybody out there is an EMDR therapist, this is just for therapists, but and you want to learn more and you want to connect with other therapists. Other therapists who do neurodiversity affirming EMDR. I do have neuro diversity affirming EMDR group on Facebook. You do need to be a licensed professional, because we would want to keep it to that group so we could, you know, share ideas, but I think that’s a really great resource for EMDR therapist to learn, you know more people that they can connect with too, because it’s a worldwide, worldwide group. We have members from New Zealand, Australia, the UK, so it’s pretty exciting.

 

Kim Howard  30:48

Happy to include a link in our podcast description. We do also have an EMDRIA Online Community, but you’d have to be a member to belong to that, so it’s not necessarily open to non-0members, but yeah, I will be happy to include that. And I will also include a link to the what is it? PDA UK, and PDA US? I think are the acronyms for the organizations. I’ll include both of those links as well, so that people can have that information.

 

Christine MacInnis  31:11

And then also, you know, for people who are just listening, who are not licensed therapists, might you mentioned it earlier, the butterfly hug is one of the best and most simple things that we can do that’s EMDR based, that is just easy. You cross your arms over your you know, over your chest, and you slowly tap the sides of your arms. It’s immediately soothing. You’re already enveloping yourself in a hug. The slow tapping provides that regulation of your nervous system, combined with deep breathing that can soothe you through most things. And so it’s definitely my free resource for those who are listening, who are not therapists, but just want to know, hey, is there any tools that you can leave me with today? Because, hey, I’m thinking maybe I am. PDA, maybe she had something to share that I’m learning about myself really helps with everybody. You know, I think it’s a very one size fits all. It kind of, yeah, it actually is.   If you weren’t an EMDR therapist, what would you be, Christine?  Retired, independently wealthy,

 

Kim Howard  32:14

owning my own island…..

 

Christine MacInnis  32:19

I can’t imagine doing anything, but what I do, I adore my job so much. It’s like a gift. It’s a blessing, and pays the bills. I mean, I can’t think of anything else that that I’d rather do.

 

Kim Howard  32:32

Good answer,

 

Christine MacInnis  32:32

Yeah.

 

Kim Howard  32:33

Is there anything else you want to add?

 

Christine MacInnis  32:34

I think we got into a lot of good stuff. You had some great questions, Kim. Thanks.

 

Kim Howard  32:38

This is great. We’re happy to have you here. I’m glad you. I’m glad you said yes

 

Christine MacInnis  32:42

Oh, I was really excited to do it. Thank you.  This has been the Let’s Talk EMDR podcast with our guest, Christine MacInnis. Visit www.EMDRIA.org for more information about EMDR therapy, or to use our Find an EMDR Therapist Directory with more than 17,000 therapists available. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this free podcast wherever you listen. Thanks for being here today.