Kim Howard  00:04

Welcome to the Let’s Talk EMDR podcast brought to you by the EMDR International Association or EMDRIA. I’m your host Kim Howard. In this episode we are talking with EMDR certified therapist and consultant, Laurel Fortin about EMDR therapy and neuro diversity. Let’s get started. Today we’re speaking with EMDR certified therapists and consultant, Laurel Thornton to talk about EMDR therapy and neurodiversity. Thank you, Laurel for being here today. We are so happy that you said yes.

 

Laurel Thornton  00:32

Yes, Kim. Thanks for having me. And I’m excited to be here. It’s one of my favorite things to do is talk about EMDR.

 

Kim Howard  00:40

Laura, can you tell us about your path to becoming an EMDR therapist?

 

Laurel Thornton  00:45

Yes, I love this question. I love origin stories. So I’m grateful that this is part of the podcast because I get to hear people that I admire tell their stories. So one of the things that I share when I facilitate basic training and meet new console teas is I was never a therapist without being an EMDR therapist. I was trained in graduate school by half. My first counseling class was taught by an EMDR consultant. And he explained how trauma works in the brain, which is actually something I had been exposed to, in my undergraduate degrees studied neuro psychology. And so I have my ears immediately perked up. And I was interested. And he talked about how EMDR works and how bilateral works. And that trauma is the most treatable mental disorder that there I mean, we could this is what he said, right? We could talk about whether or not we think that’s true. But I was hooked, I was so fascinated that there was a way to do counseling and psychotherapy in which I got to work at a neuro biological level with people. And it really spoke to my personal belief that, you know, there’s light and everybody and we’re all have amazing gifts. And with the right support, those gifts can be nurtured and expand. And with, you know, support that is shaming or othering. Like they tend to be hidden, that light tends to be hidden and moved farther from the surface. So I was very excited. And then he brought a hot training to our area 18 months after that. And so I was able to get trained during internship, and I had a wonderful mentor, who let me practice an internship, he didn’t know EMDR. But he believed in me, and he also like, hey, if balling fingers makes people feel better, I’m all for it. And so I had a lot of support early, but that’s kind of how I came into EMDR. And then he actually hired me out of grad school. So my clinical training was under a in private practice setting, we’re all they treated with complex trauma, and the only modality that was used was, you know, AIP based EMDR, right, some Gestalt techniques, obviously, phase two have a lot of options. But that’s how the practice was advertised. And that’s how I was trained.

 

Kim Howard  02:57

That’s a great story. I think we’ve had a handful of podcasts, guests who were exposed in there, either at a college level or in post college level. And so right out of the gate, they were exposed to somebody, somebody had brought it into the class and connected them and but most people are not, that’s not their career path. Most of them come to us exposed after the fact, you know, five years of their career, maybe 10, maybe whoever, whatever the number is, and somebody that they know, has done it, and they are connected through a friendship or professional colleague, you have to try this therapy. It’s really good. And yeah, I don’t know, it sounds a little woowoo. You know, not really, with magic, pixie dust. We’ve had all those terms thrown around on this podcast. And so, and then they take the training, they’re like, oh, yeah, wow. Okay. I’m a believer now. And so I love to hear people’s, as you said, origin story. So I always like to find out where they came from.

 

Laurel Thornton  03:50

Yeah. And it’s so interesting to me that that’s what gets said, Because I sat in graduate school like this doesn’t make any sense from a neuro perspective, this and then I heard about EMDR and said, Finally, this is a type of psychotherapy that actually makes sense with how the salience network and limbic system work. So this is the first time I’m actually open to learning about something because the rest of the stuff doesn’t make any sense why you would want to talk to someone when their left prefrontal cortex is offline, I don’t get it. So it is funny that we have this woowoo you know, reputation, when in fact, it really makes a lot of sense, based on how the brain works, but it’s also magic. I also say that about EMDR, too, so I get it.

 

Kim Howard  04:34

What is your favorite part of working with EMDR therapy?

 

Laurel Thornton  04:38

Well, I just kind of disclosed that a bit.

 

Kim Howard  04:40

It’s magic. That’s all I’m gonna say.

 

Laurel Thornton  04:44

Magic and I get to work with people’s brains. So I yeah, I started in college thinking I wanted to be a business major, and go into marketing and advertising and then I went to liberal arts school and you can’t declare your major until your end of your sophomore year. So I the first psychology class at my college was bio cognition and behavior. And so it was all about how the brain works. I’m so grateful because I don’t think I would have been a psych major had, I had to sit through sort of your typical intro psych class. And I remember as a professor and got to learn about how the brain worked. And I, from there, this is what I want to do. And so that really, to me is the magic is the brain is amazing. And it explains so much. And there also is this piece that’s so individualized that I constantly get to feel surprised and inspired. You know, I think it’s pretty cool. The thing that I fell in love with at 18. And college, I still get to like, be excited about 20 years later, in my daily practice, you know, and people get better, right? But yeah, so I think it is it’s the mat. It’s the intersection of individual magic and neuroscience that keeps me here and makes me a huge advocate of why more people need to be trained in this.

 

Kim Howard  06:02

That’s an awesome story. And I, I too, was a business major in college I was I was a couple of majors first, it was pre med. And I don’t know why I thought I was going to be a doctor because I hate science and math, and I’m not very good at it. And then I thought, Oh, I’ll do business, everybody does business, I can do this. And then I got to accounting class. And I could not get past the fact that credit was not a plus, and debit was not a minus or vice versa. However it is. And I was like, Oh, I can’t do this one class, I just got to get through this. I cannot do this for multiple classes down the road. And then I took speech communications class, and the professor said, ‘Have you thought about journalism as a major?’ I’m like no. And that’s how I fell into my major. Because I could think you’d be really good at this. And that’s how I fell into it. So yeah, I too, was a business major and decided that was not for me. But I am glad that you found your career path at such a young age. That’s real. I just interviewed Nancy Andino. And she said that when she was in her teens, she knew that she wanted to help people. She didn’t know what it was or what it was called. But she wanted to do work with people who needed help. And she knew was something in the therapy world and related somehow and and that’s really insightful to be that young and figure that out. You know? Yeah, really, it’s quite, it’s not a it’s not one of those jobs where you can go home and kind of forget about what you do all day, you know, not that you want to take on all the burdens of your clients. But it’s not a job to easily detach from I don’t think and so hats off to you guys for figuring that out at a young age and pursuing your career field. So thank you, Lyra some wandering in there. But I’m thinking underwater basket weaving is good for me. What successes have you seen using EMDR therapy for the neuro diverse population?

 

Laurel Thornton  07:41

So Kim, I’ll be super honest with you. When I read this question, there’s a part of me that was like, oh, gosh, I don’t have any success stories. And I shouldn’t be on the podcast. And so I’m canceling right now. But that’s like, so typical of ADHD, right? Like, oh, um, something didn’t immediately pop up for me. And so I don’t have anything. And then, you know, I practice this a lot. And my brain has been this way my whole life, because this was a split second, right? And I just giggled, because one of the reasons that that happens to me is for so long, I didn’t realize that almost all my clients also had ADHD. And so, you know, they were drawn to me because of my energy and the fact that we would get distracted together and come back, and you know, that they felt safe. They didn’t feel judged. And so, you know, when you like, neuro diverse success stories, oh, I don’t have any. No, Laurel, that’s sort of your central point of all of this is that we already work with a neuro diverse population, right? Because we’re EMDR therapists, right? If I wasn’t talking to EMDR therapists, we would have complex PTSD being under a form of neuro divergent thinking. But when you talk to EMDR therapists, like okay, yes, I want to learn more about how to work with neurodiversity. And I’m, like, remind you you already do. What you’re really asking is, when there are other things added on to stress and trauma, how do I help them feel like this intervention fits them better. And so mostly, like my goal for the talk at EMDRIA, was to help people feel more comfortable to start that actually, the person centered or nervous system centered approach of the AIP model is a perfect foundation. And if you really lean into that, and co-create a space to work with your clients, like they’ll help guide you what works and what doesn’t. And, you know, like most things, I’m sure you’ve heard, like standard protocols, pretty amazing. And we edit it to better suit the person in front. So success stories, I think, for me, they’re sort of that general, the way my brain works the way I love EMDR I didn’t even really think about it too much. And I just did it and it worked and And I, you know, we switch the speed of bilateral, we switch to the future bilateral. So that’s like one thing, I think with ADHD. And then as I thought about it more, you know, I think one of my biggest success stories is helping people with traumatic brain injuries. And just, I got to pull some of that training I had on understanding what damaged parts of the brain like how that might impact the system. But then really giving myself permission to slow down and have patience, as reflecting on this of working with traumatic brain injury. It’s interesting, because you never know what’s going to show up in your office, right. So they’re so sensitive to stress, one part to plan but to just show working with what shows up and some days, that might simply be getting someone’s heart rate to calm down enough so that they can take deep breaths and really slow down the resourcing and then I have someone else with a very serious TBI. And the last session I had with her she’d had a really good week, or she was sleeping well, or stress was managed. And had we recorded that session, I don’t think any of you would have been able to tell she had such a serious TBI, she was having a really good day, I used fast bilateral, we flew through a target. And it was a great session. And she felt good. And she walked out of here and she was driving. And then there have been some weeks where I’ve had to complete sentences for her. And I was thinking about how that felt sort of uneven cadence of treating some of these disorders. And also, wow, that’s probably exactly what it’s like for them. Right? They don’t know how their brains gonna feel on any given day. And sure, there’s things we can control. But we all know, we can control the stressors of the environment. And so I think like that feels like a success, that permission of slowing down and just creating space for people to show up how they are not generally but in the day and in the moment. So that those are my two kind of polar examples that I had in reaction to that question. So thanks.

 

Kim Howard  12:04

That’s good information. I mean, I don’t know, I’ve never been a therapist, but I would presume that when people come in, it’s never the same, right? So you could have that you could be seeing the same client for a long time. But every time you have a session with them, that may not be the same. And so you have to give them and yourself permission to be flexible. Right. I mean, I think that’s what I think is what a lot of people why people are drawn to EMDR therapy is that there’s some flexibility in it. And I mean, there’s the standard protocol, and there are things that you do, and there are the eight phases and, and there, it’s spelled out for you sort of right, there’s also this flexibility to sort of tailor your therapeutic approach, right, we’ve talked about this on podcast before about how you guys really just have to customize your approach to all of your clients, because all of your clients are different. You know, this, this because five, your clients have ADD or ADHD, that doesn’t mean they come in with the same issues or the same responses. And you you kind of have to tailor what you’re doing to them. So you guys are, you know, like they used to say the Burger King slogan, ‘Uou’re having it your way.’ I mean, you you’re literally just customizing every every client’s experience. And so that’s a lot. That’s a lot to manage. So hats off to you guys.

 

Laurel Thornton  13:18

I think I would argue that’s probably the fun part. And what also reduces burnout and EMDR therapists because it’s really not so much about us. It’s about their brain and all that brain showing up today. And there’s that excitement and novelty of Whew, I wonder how they’re going to be doing today. And from there what’s possible, so yes, absolutely. And for me, at least it’s what keeps me doing this. I joke, the only thing to hold my attention for you know, over a decade has been soccer and EMDR. I stick to that there’s just always more to learn and do good though.

 

Kim Howard  13:52

Laurel, are there any myths that you would like to bust about EMDR therapy for neurodiversity?

 

Laurel Thornton  13:56

So first, I think it’s nice to separate some terms. So neurodiversity is a fact right? We are a neuro diverse population, meaning our brains are different. I think of it somewhat like fingerprints, right? You can recognize that it’s a fingerprint, but the intricacies that make my fingerprint mine and your fingerprint, yours are vast, two brains are like that, and that it’s on a continuum. So I think that’s one thing is just, anytime we talk about diversity, right, there’s a whole online and then neurodivergent speaks to something that we could see, right, it’s a distinct difference, and particularly in brain imaging. And so, you know, that’s one thing is that there are many forms of neuro divergence, and it’s everywhere and we talk more about the diagnoses that tend to show up in developmental ways or preventing people from being successful in a neuro typically designed world. And so that’s just like one thing I like to start with is somewhat separating. So with that, I think I start talking about the bilateral stimulation for the first part, like, I want to break up the myth about bilateral that we need to be scared of fast bilateral. I went to a great presentation at the EMDRIA conference with Susan darker Smith. And she said, bilateral stimulation is kindness to your neurodivergent clients. And I was like, yes, say it again. Right. And so that’s one thing of ADHD, autism spectrum disorder, like the people tend to really like the bilateral. So don’t be scared of it, bring it out early. Have that be a way to get to know, your office and your setting is like experimenting with incorporating bilateral, it’s virtually impossible to have a panic attack when you’re being bilaterally stimulated quickly. I’m sure someone could could do it. But it’s so much harder. So I think that’s one thing is in basic training, you know, we talked about slow bilateral for resourcing. A lot of processing disorders, the slow is almost anxiety producing. So again, when you talk about it’s individualized, get curious and find the speed that their nervous system likes, then that’s the right speed for them. So that’s one is just use bilateral more and let them pick the speed the person you’re working with. And then, you know, I think another thing is that this is a new space. So if you’re waiting to be an expert, or go get a bunch of training on working with neuro diverse populations, we haven’t created those yet. And we’re in the process. And there’s just so much to learn, and so many differences. So I think the other myth busting is I would venture to say very few people feel like they’re an expert in neurodiversity, and EMDR. So with that, trust your training, case, conceptualization and work on what you know, I think no matter what your brain is, like, shame is maladaptive. And so if you take that approach with any of your clients of reducing shame, and increasing adaptive networks, you’re going to be helpful, and then go get consultation, you know, or go to a training. But if you wait to start until you feel like you have all the pieces like you’re probably not going to get started. So those are the two kind of big ones that I just feel motivated to share.

 

Kim Howard  17:36

Those are great, great points. And it’s good for people to remember that there’s no time like the present, right, in terms of propelling your offerings forward or serving more populations, if that is what you choose to do in terms of your EMDR therapy. And seeking out your colleagues who are already practicing is in those areas and getting the knowledge from them and helping that expertise help you establish what you want to do. My son and my husband, both have ADHD. And there are so many people out there like that, who have become diagnosed with it over the last probably the last decade, maybe decade and a half, you know, in terms of the ability to do that. And so there are a lot of people out there who are whose brains work differently than yours. And if my husband and my son are any examples, they are some of the smartest people that you will ever meet. And so helping them to focus on things and get the things solved that they want to get solved is, it’s quite quite a calling. You know, it’s it’s beautiful. I think being a therapist is just a beautiful vocation anyway, because you guys are literally helping people to heal. And so if you can do that kind of work, and you can find the people in your field who who are doing those kinds of practices and getting their information. That’s one thing I love about associations is that you already have that network. You know, when you belong to an association, you’ve got all these people who do what you do, and you can seek any of them out for information and expertise and help.

 

Laurel Thornton  19:11

Yeah, absolutely. And Kim, I love that I just want to like pause, one thing you said of like, your husband and your son are really intelligent. And I think that’s another it’s not such a common myth anymore. But what I would say from an AIP lens is think about all the cognitive work and and somatic work that it takes for a brain that sees or processes or moves through the world differently, to check off all the boxes that were created by someone’s brain who worked very linearly, right? And to be inspired by that and pull on that there’s so much resilience in people whose brains process information differently because they functioned in a world that wasn’t designed for them, which is I don’t like I’m not making a comment on that so much, but there’s so much good it in. And yeah, I read something as I was prepping for, for the EMDRIA conference that there’s someone who has a hypothesis that every major advancement of humankind, like the Aqua ducks, and these sort of just someone with dyslexia was involved in the project. And this idea of like, sort of the reverse thinking, challenge everything, and then from there created something great. And I love that. And if I don’t know it to me, I’m like, that feels right. Yeah,

 

Kim Howard  20:28

Yeah. Well, I, my son is the oldest and my daughter is the youngest of two. And I learned very early on when they were in elementary school, that schools and this is not a negative comment about schools, or teachers or anything, but we’ve had some wonderful experiences over the years. But schools are basically kind of designed for girls. And I’m not trying to like, I’m not trying to pigeonhole people. But you know, you go, you sit in a classroom, you do paperwork, put stuff on screen, yada, yada, and boys, but in general, not all they need my hands on like you, they want to go to the chemistry lab, they want to go to the automotive lab, you know, when they’re in high school, they want to do those things. And that’s how they learn. You know, that’s when I realized I’m like, holy cow, I’ve got two different learners in my household, you know, and how do we approach that? And how do we help them be successful, and it was, I will tell you, it was a struggle, I’m not gonna lie, it was, it was difficult. But we knew at a really early age that our son was really good at figuring out how to fix things, and how to take things apart and put them back together. And that takes a special kind of talent. You just have to kind of go with it, no pun intended, you know, and figure out what they need to do to be successful. You know, and when our son came to us in high school, and I wish we would have listened to you know, he wanted because not everybody needs to go to college, and college is not for everyone. And he said I want to go to the automotive program. And we were like, no, no, we think you should go to college, we don’t want you to do that. Well, in hindsight, we should have listened because he has been working at an auto mechanic shop since he was 16. And he’s doing what he wants to do. And if we had listened to him in high school, he could have gotten a couple of certifications as E certification through the school, but we were dumb parents. So don’t be a dumb parent, like we were, you know, listen to your child, if your child says college is not for them, then you help them find a way to do something else that they want to do that’s not college related. And that’s okay. And be okay with that. Because those blue collar workers are some of the smartest people I’ve ever met. So don’t be like that.

 

Laurel Thornton  22:29

Yeah. And I think you just bring up I mean, you know, I’ve to kid as well, my son has a undiagnosed neuromuscular condition. And so the whole not knowing and you want like, I mean, this is also normal. And I, you know, I’m grateful that you’re sharing the like, what hindsight lessons, because I think it’s important, you know, parents want want what’s best for their children, and we filter it through our lens and how our brains work.

 

Kim Howard  22:56

Correct.

 

Laurel Thornton  22:56

I loved college. Right? And I also get why people would not, but so I love that you shared that. And I think, you know, my son gets such a wide, like, you know, we have a full waiver, he couldn’t go to school as much as it because of his diagnosis. And we’ve got it early. Right, right. But what you’re speaking to is like, normal enough. I don’t I’m putting air quotes as the podcast, but like, normal imenough, imagine my quotation, right to like, force through that, like, typical path, right? And that’s kind of what I’m talking to of, like, you know, for EMDR. Therapists like what kind of mess internalize and messages did that brain pick up of like, there’s something wrong with me. And it’s unintentional. Most of the time, we don’t mean to do that. But those are the places that I really see EMDR being life changing, of like, you are so creative, you’re so like, I love how your brain works. And the school system really doesn’t even have like a template for that. And as an adult, a lot of times the person can go Yeah, you’re right. And actually, you don’t want a teacher that really let me get away with a lot. I think they saw that. I was doing my best. Yeah. And you start finding those bright spots and the people that helped get you through instead of just those achy spots. You know, I don’t know, like, I don’t know how I would do now with all the screen learning. Like I find it very hard to stay focused on…

 

Kim Howard  24:29

Yeah. Yeah. Well, my daughter, we had one of each so I had a daughter was like you she loves school. She was organized, she notetaker all the stuff, you know, loved college. In fact, she’s getting her master’s and she graduates in December. And she said to me, if I ever tell you again that I’m bored, do not let me do not let me go back to school and get enough because she is kind of burned out and I was like I tried to tell you it’s a lot to handle working full time and going to med school. So we did have one of each. So I did have a therapist when the children were younger. Tell us So you need to understand that your children, even though they came from the same DNA, they are completely different human beings. And that was like a lightbulb moment for me as a parent, because I’m like, well, they’re, they’re from me and my husband, they should be the, they’re not the same. They’re two, they’re literally different people in terms of personalities and approaches and things. And thank God, that therapist is smart enough to tell me that, you know, and that’s when the light bulb moment really happened. For me as a parent, in terms of managing them. I will say that there are some amazing teachers out there who, who get students and engage with them. And then there are teachers who not so good. So the struggle is real. And I understand parents, and I understand teachers, and I feel you on that. So.

 

Laurel Thornton  25:41

Yeah, I mean, we are all just doing the best we can. And sometimes that’s really not good enough for the kids.

 

Kim Howard  25:47

Yes, that is correct. That is correct. That’s correct. So Laura, are there any specific complexities or difficulties with the use in EMDR therapy for this population?

 

Laurel Thornton  25:57

Yes, you know, this is one, where, you know, we said the brain is incredibly complex. And I feel like I wouldn’t be doing this topic, justice, if I didn’t say, you know, part of my comfort, working with neurodiversity that I have for your undergraduate degree in neuro psychology from an institution that’s very good at teaching neuroscience. So I have a bit of a different foundation of coming into this work. So I want to validate that because I think it’s hard when I look at what’s available for learning about this. And we’re trying to like take complex neuroscience and making it, you know, sort of the practical application or explaining it in ways that speak to therapists. So that’s difficult. So I think the complexity comes with, the same thing that makes me so excited is that every brain is different. And it becomes hard to tell you a list of things to know or do when working with neurodivergent. I think that was one of my pause is of designing a training or talking about speaking. And so what I come back to and is that our case conceptualization of a client is so important to successful outcomes. And when I consult or teach, you know, one of the things that I am constantly asking my supervisees, and my conflict is, how did those symptoms make sense to you? And, you know, again, I think when you describe your son, the symptoms, you saw now that you really know him, and we see, or, you know, we I’m not there, but we see who he is, as an adult, you’re like, Wow, this symptom that I saw at 12, or 18, makes so much sense. And if I had the knowledge, I know, now I would have done these things, because I think it was just his way of asking for help or support or these things. So I have a lot of faith in nervous systems to actually ask for what they need. And very rarely is that in words, one of the reasons I have a lot of hoped for increased healing outcomes for neurodivergent populations is because of AIP. That and that adaptive information processing model and how it says our job and I’m going to paraphrase Paul Miller here, but our job is to help them create the adaptive information processing system that’s best for them. It’s not to give them ours. And I love that. So that’s the job. And then it is sometimes complex to figure out what pieces to put in. But I do trust that brains want to heal, they are going to survive, and then they want to heal. And so I realize I didn’t really answer the question. And so anytime I think that the answer is, oh, it depends on the person, it’s just a chance to get curious and remind ourselves when we’re working with this population is that you do the best you can on that session. And if there’s something that doesn’t make sense, then like you’ve said before you go seek the information. Oh, okay. So I’m not recognizing what’s going on with this person. I’m gonna go read about I think maybe it’s dyslexia, maybe it’s, you know, let me go learn about that. And then I can get curious to ask different questions. One of my favorite things about EMDR is it’s not diagnosis dependent. So it doesn’t really matter what the diagnosis of this person is for us to be helpful. And so there’s a lot of freedom in that. And I will also say then, really, practically, my disclaimer is if you’re working with TBI, or seizures, make sure there’s a neurologist on the team and consult. Like, you know, oftentimes when we get into more of the, there has been physical damage to the brain. It’s not a processing issue. It’s we want a team. We want a medical team and I’m a supplement. So I will say that asterisk when we’re concerned about brain damage or any sort of major medical condition, we are probably not the person driving treatment, we’re the supplement to treatment. So I feel like I need to say both.

 

Kim Howard  30:11

I think those are good points. And I think that again, we go back to the, it’s not set in stone, you have to be flexible. And I know that that’s not an answer. But sometimes that is the answer. Because if you’re working with people, I mean, everybody comes to you differently anyway, because we’re all literally different humans, we all have different, you know, fingerprints, like I said earlier. And so working with somebody who’s new or divergent there, I think there’s little more layer of complication in terms of how different people are just we’ve talked about this before in the podcast, you know, just because I’m a white woman doesn’t mean that you’re a white woman doesn’t mean our life experiences are the same for our lenses are not the same. So we can’t categorize well. Everybody who has ADHD or ADD does this and everybody who has a TBI does that. That’s not how that works. Yes, they have a common diagnosis. So they have a common condition. But that doesn’t mean and they have some things in common, but not everything in common. So we have to be flexible, like you said, and going back to The Parenting discussion we had, you know, it’s really easy for me to sit here with my children who are young adults, and be, you know, my hindsight is clear now 2020, you know, but when you’re in the moment, and you’re raising kids, not so much, so don’t beat yourself up too much. But if you do have to have a child who says college may not be for me, just try to be open to that, you know, just try to be open to that and help them figure out what is for them.

 

Laurel Thornton  31:30

Right? In therapy, too. Right? Yeah, so probably like your therapist.

 

Kim Howard  31:36

Yeah, yeah, we’ve talked about that, too, you have permission therapy is finding a good therapist, or a therapist that fits with you is like dating, you know, sometimes you have to try it out. And sometimes your it works, and all the cylinders are doing what they’re supposed to do. And sometimes you’re like, something’s misfiring. And something’s not right. So you have permission to find somebody else, you know, just explain to them, this is not working. And here’s why. Maybe there can be an adjustment made and it will work going forward. Or maybe they just can’t be made. And you do have to find somebody else. And I know that’s a huge pain in the behind, you know, finding somebody new, but sometimes you have to do what’s best for you. And so that may be the solution.

 

Laurel Thornton  32:15

Right.

 

Kim Howard  32:16

Laurel, how do you practice cultural humility as an EMDR therapist?

 

Laurel Thornton  32:21

This is another good question, Kim. And I had a chance this one, I sat and thought about that, too. So I’m located in West Virginia. I’m in a college town. And it’s different than the environment I grew up in, you know, I moved here from Atlanta, Georgia, and I grew up in, I grew up in rural North Carolina, but into high school in Chapel Hill. And, you know, I just constantly come back to like, normal is what you get used to. And, you know, West Virginia has some of the highest rates of deaths of despair in the country, overdose, suicides, forgetting there’s another one in there, but neglect. And sometimes I feel like, you know, running a practice here that really strives to be inclusive. We’re just in survival mode. You know, we’re just trying to help save people’s lives as quick and as fast and as like, I mean, sometimes dirty, right? It feels like, you know, it’s like, we didn’t wash our hands to do this operating. But we need to do like, there’s this like, urgency here. Yes. And I think, anytime there’s that much urgency for thinking, you know, part of our brains, the parts where we’re really mindful, they get pushed back, because again, it’s like, it’s survival mode. And so recently, I’ve just been recognizing, that’s where I live. And I don’t want to stop doing that I don’t want to stop being on the front lines of this epidemic that we have here in West Virginia. And I need to practice what I preach, which is pause and offer opportunity for feedback, and repairs. Because then, you know, I’m not perfect, and I don’t ever want to be and so it’s I think that’s the practice is, you know, we, when you’re outward facing, and then you have places for posts, then things like that, to make sure you have space for feedback base for reflection with our team, going to trainings, I loved being at EMDRIA, the EMDRIA conference, because there was such an emphasis on how do we do better as a community, I got some great ideas of you know, and one thing that I really recently have just have tried to explore is like the flattening of hierarchies and maybe being more open, you know, we’re trained in this way of like, Oh, we don’t share we don’t disclose, right, like, it’s not about me, then also realizing them that puts me kind of at a higher power dynamic. And so, and especially being located in Appalachia, we’ve really been leaning in here about Storytelling and how powerful that is here and that maybe we do we share a little bit more about our stories. Like I love the origin story I love that you shared about your family, you know, I’m starting to share more about my kids and the imperfections. Parenting, when you were have taught human development and you married an elementary school counselor like, you know that we’re this job is not easy for us either. And, and so. So I think that’s the, my practice, what I’m really leaning into is pausing and looking for places where my nervous system kind of, or my heart or anxiety jumps up, because I’m like, Okay, there’s something there that I need to explore more I need to own or, or something. So it’s, it’s the balance of how do we save lives? And also, how do we pause and make sure that we’re taking care of things that aren’t like, five fire alarm bells, because you know, the one the one alarm bell or the just like, hey, I need help, that voice also matters. Or, hey, that didn’t feel good to me. And so yeah, I don’t know how I’m going to do it as long as I want. But I’m going to keep trying. Yeah. So that’s, that’s where I’m currently with that piece.

 

Kim Howard  36:13

Yeah, my dad actually was from West Virginia. So my dad was a coal miner’s son. So I am familiar with the economic disparity that is, in many, many, many parts of West Virginia, not all but many. And I know that the opioid epidemic has been, you know, especially hard hit in certain communities that West Virginia being one state, it’s been hit pretty hard. And so I do get that my father has he passed away in 2019 from lung cancer, but I have been to West Virginia and I grew up, my dad was military night, we grew up going back there to visit his mom, and even back then, and I’m in my mid 50s, it was still one of those states where you’re like, is this all there is here, you know, and so you look at that, and I don’t mean, from a glamour perspective, when I say is this all there is here, but I mean, from an economic perspective, you know, in terms of, you know, opportunities for people to live their life and work and have careers and that kind of thing. And that is a difficult situation to be in, in terms of trying to offer care to, to people who need that, like you said, the five alarm bell kind of care versus the, you know, the maintenance care, or the the less alarm bell care, you know, and you’re kind of instill in that, that urgent mode. And so thank you for doing that, because I am sure that that is not easy to manage and balance that and I will say that cultural humility, and all of those things also kind of depends on where you live, you know, you may not have you may not have a large population of people who are non white in your area, I don’t know. And so it kind of answering that question is, is a little difficult, because it kind of depends on where you’re physically are located and who your clients are. But we like to ask that because we, we want to talk about diversity and inclusion in that space, because humanity needs therapists, right. And humanity needs more therapists who can relate to other populations other than white people. You know, I’m white, I’ve said it before on the podcast, not ashamed of being white. But I have a different life than somebody who grew up black or somebody who grew up Asian or somebody who, you know, they just have a different life experience. And so how do you as healers, help people who don’t look like you didn’t grow up? Like you? You know, and how do you make that happen? And so it’s not an easy question to answer. But again, it goes kind of goes back to who your clientele is, and where you live, and how those clients come to you. And….

 

Laurel Thornton  38:52

And, I think you’re saying something that’s been an important learning lesson for me, because, you know, that goes in all directions, right? The BIPOC experience in Morgantown, West Virginia is going to be very different than it is in Atlanta, Georgia. Oh, yeah. For, you know, and same thing that LGBTQ plus can be like, you know, I remember getting a call, like, over 10 years ago, or an email, I don’t know, but like contact and like, Hey, you’re the only person that openly advertises that you’ll do counseling with transgender individuals. And I was like, what? Like, yeah, we did a search in West Virginia, the only person that’s openly advertising it, and I was like, okay, look, so we want to put you on our list and or, you know, I don’t, I was, but I just remember being so struck by the i It never occurred to me like not to work with these people based on where, you know, who raised me, like, let’s be honest, like, based on the people that raised me, it never occurred that I would. And all these things have changed now, right now. There’s much more support to like, openly state things cuz and I think that’s great. But this was in 2013, it was 10 years ago. And so it’s just been an interesting experience and also then getting stuff wrong. And, you know, recently got some feedback, it was very emotional. And there was parts that I felt really were helpful to be just around the separation of pronouns and gender identity and gender expression. And I definitely got something wrong. And it just occurred to me, because some of the feedback was like, obviously, you have no training and working with LBGTQ plus individuals, that one just felt interesting to me, because I actually have quite a bit, but it had focused in the treatment of not treatment, but helping transgender individuals receive treatment. And it really had I had, like, I had kind of ignored being well rounded in order to like support a need that was like, very salient to my practice, and like to my state, and a population that I had been drawn to hoping and so you know, it’s just one of those things of like, wow, I do care a lot about that. And I’ve invested time and money, and I got something wrong. And I gave out that in addition, that I don’t have training and that I don’t care and that hard, because I cause pain. And so I think like when we talk about the practice and the pause, that was one of those moments that was a big part of me, but also just, we really don’t know each other in this world, and we’re trying to form connection we’re trying to heal. And this person doesn’t really know me or anything about my story. And then, based on comment I made, they felt like I didn’t know or care about them, either. And so I think, also, like you said, owning what it’s like to move around the world as a cisgendered, white woman, you know, we can we can own that, like discomfort and talk about it. So I’m glad for space, and it does my normal. How I grew up in where I went to college is very different than what now I realize that is normal in this area. And so I also think, not assuming, just so looking at places where we make assumptions and offering people the opportunity to respond or give us the information has been the one of the most helpful things again, I’m not perfect at it.

 

Kim Howard  42:21

And, I don’t think any of us are perfect. And I you know, I grew up a military brat and and I’ve talked about this on the podcast before where I grew up on a military base, and I lived a little melting pot between the four houses, our house and the three others. And I learned, you know, I lived across the street from the Mexican guy who was married to the [Korean] woman, and they lived next door to the Iranian family who was you know, had come from, I’m sorry, Iranian family. Because at the time, we had like a not trade agreement, but where people would come in, militaries would come in, and we would train their helicopter pilots. It was just the right training base in Alabama and and who lived next door to the black couple, who who lived next door to us. And I learned at a really young age that if you don’t want to play with people who don’t look like you, or sound like you or act like you, you’re gonna be a lonely kid. But not everybody has that experience, you know, and I was fortunate enough, when my children were young, I worked in an association in DC and worked with many people in the LGBTQA community. And I learned very young and decided, like, as I was mid to late 30s. In working with them, I got some insight to how their families handled them coming out. You know, because I asked that question, because my children were still young, they were in elementary school. And I was like, Well, how did you come out to your parents? And how was that handled? And, you know, because I, I made a decision that if my kids ever wanted to be comfortable enough with me to come out, I didn’t want them to feel like number one, they couldn’t come out to me. And number two, how would I respond as a parent? Number three, how would I respond as a Catholic parent, right? And so I got tremendous insight from those colleagues, and I am forever grateful to them. No, my children are not there straight. We never dealt with that. But I wanted to understand and know. And I think that, that really, that’s the only way that you learn, really, and I know that some people are like, Why don’t you learn from me, you should already know, by the time I walk into your office, I know that some people have that kind of mentality. But quite frankly, if you’ve never worked with or lived with or friends with people who are different from you, it’s really hard to be diverse. So you have to learn somewhere, and somebody has to kind of be your guinea pig, unfortunately, and you’re gonna make mistakes along the way, you know, I’m sure I’ve said some things over the years that were stupid, and were insensitive. And so I would hope that I would wouldn’t going forward you know, when I learned that I would not continue to do that in the future. Feel free. I’m still friends with those people that I worked with and their insights and their the work that we had the relationships that we had, I mean, they’re my friends and so. But I would never have been exposed to that if I hadn’t worked with them. And so, you know, because you kind of hang out with people who are like you most of the Time is six degrees of separation, right? You’re the six people that you hang out with at the most people that are the people that you’re going to become most like, I guess is the phrase. But if you don’t expand your circle, to include people who are different than you, you’re never going to know. And not knowing, you know, knowing helps you become less afraid. It’s like trying a new food. Right? You don’t know till you try it. Yeah. So try a new relationship with somebody, you’re never going to know until you try. There’s nothing wrong with trying.

 

Laurel Thornton  45:28

And we’ll keep going.

 

Kim Howard  45:29

Keep going again and I’ll try to make it better. Yeah, that’s all we can do. So do you have a favorite free EMDR related resource that you suggest either for the public or other EMDR therapists?

 

Laurel Thornton  45:38

One thing that’s really helped me feel validated and how I saw EMDR? And I’m, you know, not very many, I talk to people a lot about how does the EMDR work? Eric Chamberlain published an article in the journal in it, I think it came out in 2019, the network balance model of trauma resolution, and I think it’s one of the single best explanations of what EMDR is and how it works. And so if you haven’t read that, and you want to really deepen your understanding of the neurobiology of what we’re doing, I highly recommend that article. So if you’re a member, it’s free. I’m sure it’s free online, I think you can get all the journal articles now free on Google Scholar. So that’s one and connected to this topic. I think it’s important because if we really understand what’s happening in the brain, when we experience stressful, highly stressful toward traumatic experience, and then we understand what the brain is naturally trying to do after, I think it really helps us figure out how we intervene. You know, one of the most interesting things to me is that the salience network, which is one of the large scale neural networks involved in what we do, and it sits in the middle of the brain, it’s the network that goes works with the limbic system. But it is connected to so many disorders. And it also, we see one, it’s the same in all mammals. So every mammal has a limbic system and looks like almost identical, but also cross forms of neuro divergence, we don’t see a ton of variance in that part of the brain, much more of the variances in the frontal lobe, and, you know, or different connections. And so that, again, supports this idea that EMDR is an amazing intervention for Neuro diverse populations, because this mechanism that’s designed to save our life and also designed to heal is probably functioning very, very similar to any other brain. So that’s one of mine, just a plug for Dr. Chamberlain’s article, also, the neuro diversity network.net is the awesome website that brought together a lot of resources psychoeducation podcast, I think that’s a wonderful place to just get curious and start interacting with what’s out there. I haven’t mentioned it yet. But the the neurodiversity movement was started by a woman that is on the autism spectrum, just celebrating that, you know, all brains are amazing. And so a lot of when you look into neuro divergence, a lot of its going to be around autism spectrum disorders, stuff written by autistic things like that, like and so that’s what you’ll see a lot of, but as you kind of keep going, you’ll get more information about other forms. So don’t get discouraged if that’s what first you see, and you’re looking for something else. I’m Judy singer, is the woman that kind of pioneered the the social movement, she’s phenomenal, and, and will credit her with starting this, but it’s really expanded in so many directions. So those were two that came to mind. One very neuro sciency and EMDR specific and then the other much more general. So ya know,

 

Kim Howard  48:55

That’s a great resources. So I will put them into the description in the podcast, so people can access that information. I’ll put the links in the description. So thank you. What would you like people outside of the EMDR community to know about EMDR and neurodiversity?

 

Laurel Thornton  49:10

Well, one thing is just that neuro diversity is a fact. So to start there, but outside of the EMDR community, this one, you know, I take a pause because I think this sort of goes back to how what I think is true before I was an EMDR therapist, which is that I went I went to a friend school growing up and the Quaker philosophy of education, right is that God’s light or the light isn’t everybody and you like how you help someone is to help nurture their light or create space for someone else’s like light can be expressed and I I think that’s just one of the things like even if you’re not a therapist, there are ways to support other human beings feeling safe to express their light. So you know that shop local support farmers, like people that are doing what they love, like no one is that You know, and that doesn’t have to be your job. You know, I think there’s a lot of time in the day. And so just make sure that at some point in our day, we’re practicing something that brings us or lets us get in touch with our own light that makes us feel like we matter, and that we’re worthy. And that we’re love that that’s important. And, you know, how does that relate to neurodiversity and EMDR? I think like, that’s the whole point, that this is a therapy about increasing adaptive networks, increasing the good. You know, when I give general talks to people about EMDR, I said, this therapy believes that before we ask anyone to do anything different, or anyone that we want to take anything from anyone, we want to give you something first, hey, let me show you this thing. Let me see if I can give you this resource before I asked you to change. And that’s why we love EMDR. That’s why all of us were like, Yeah, of course, I want to be the demo. Like all demo. And so out, you know, it, I don’t care how your brain works, increasing adaptive responses, networks, coping skills, whatever you want to call them. That is a pretty amazing place to start. And I think there are many ways in which we can do that further Pete help do that for other people that aren’t therapy. So that’s what comes up for me is be a kind human support and find other times even to connect to, because trauma thrive in isolation.

 

Kim Howard  51:32

Yeah, that Golden Rule, treat others how you want to be treated. And that’s when I brought up that story about my, my colleagues and friends. When I worked at a previous job, my I’m like, Okay, if my, if my children did come out to me, how would I want them to be treated? Right, even as a parent, so how would I want my kids to be treated out in the world. And so if I want to treat my children with disrespect to that, I would disrespect people. And if I bet if I want them to be treated with love, and kindness, and understanding, then that is how I want to treat other people. And so that was a, that was a kind of an eye opening time for me. And so I was like, No, I wouldn’t treat my kids that way. So I’m not gonna treat other people that way. That’s not the way I want to live my life. So good advice.  Thank you, Laura.

 

Laurel Thornton  52:21

Yeah. And I would also say, in what we do working with complex PTSD, sometimes that has to be switched of like, how about you treat yourself the way that you treat others? So often, we see like, all that, Eric, all that negativity that we were exposed to gets pointed back on ourselves, and so that it is bi directional. And I don’t know, what does any of the what do any of those details about who you love? Or how you want to, like, have to do with….

 

Kim Howard  52:49

The price of anything? Yes, correct. Absolutely. That and I think you’re right about the self-loathing that we dump on ourselves, just humanity in general, you know, we’d beat ourselves up so often think that people who have brains that are different than other peoples probably do it even more, because they can quite fit in, in school, you know, they’re called out by the teacher, because they’re fidgeting too much, or their homework is messy, or they’re late with their homework, or they didn’t do it, or they didn’t hear or they didn’t. So they internally just start to beat themselves down, because they don’t really know why they’re doing that. And so not your fault where your brain is. And so, try not to beat yourself up too much. Because you don’t, you don’t deserve that. I think this question may not be good for you, because you knew at such a young age, we’re going to be an EMDR therapist, but I’m going to ask it anyway, if you weren’t any of the therapists, what would you be?

 

Laurel Thornton  53:46

I would probably be a cognitive neuroscientist, I would have never I would have stayed in research. I love research. I really, you know, so I would probably be talking about similar things with a lot less people story than much more like stories about mice or rats or my lab. No, actually my like research mentor did looked at, you know, hormones and competition and things like that. So maybe humans, but I definitely would have a lot less interpersonal, you know, therapy stories, I think, but I also have a career in soccer, too. But no, I don’t I was not meant to do that. I was meant to do something with brain. So I think I would have gotten a PhD in neuro-psych.

 

Kim Howard  54:28

And that’s awesom – a great answer. There’s no wrong answer to that question. I just like to ask it because I think it gives a different lens to the people that we’re interviewing, you know, it kind of takes you out of the oh, I’m the therapist lens. Oh, I might have been this at one point in my life, you know, it gives people a little more dimension. Yeah, and I am just this I am just a therapist, not just but you know, I am a nav dark therapist, and so you’re like No, well, what if you couldn’t do that? What would you do?

 

Laurel Thornton  54:56

Right. Now I have this like, Aha moment of oh, I’m actually educator, that’s how I somewhat identify more like help educate people to like, take advantage of their own lives, or I do talk there. And that kind of felt like it encompassed all the things. But yeah, it is. I mean, it’s interesting when you hang out with a bunch of therapists, right? Like, again, that becomes your normal, and then you hear all the things that other people think about therapists. And you’re like, Yeah, okay, we’re, yeah, I get it. You know, we’re, we are a little strange, but we love we love each other ourselves. Like, hopefully,

 

Kim Howard  55:35

I think every group, I think every profession is like that, you know, you get together with, like, I get together with all the association publishers, or the editors of the word nerds, the grammar people, and I mean, we’re just, we just think we’re the smartest people in the world, you know, but I’m sure to the outside people were like, Oh, my God, these word nerds over there at that conference, you know, walk around, literally watching their p’s and q’s. And, you know, it can get a little boring for us. But we think we’re cool. And so I think that every profession is like that. I think the fact that you guys rely on each other and learn from each other and share information is really, ultimately what happens because that old saying about, you’re only as strong as your weakest link, right? And so you want to make sure that people in your profession, have access to all the information that they can with the networks and the resources so that they can get even better at what they’re doing, you know, and help even more people. So that’s ultimately the goal. Laurel, is there anything else you’d like to add?

 

Laurel Thornton  56:35

Just that reiterate the point, that shame is maladaptive. And if we can help people connect to a true sense of safety, you know, biological safety, so much is possible from there. And so I love what we do. And I’m so much hope that as EMDR, we’re really the AIP model continues to spread, a lot of amazing things are possible. So when it comes to working with neurodiversity, to just that with that, if you can decrease shame, and your clients, you are changing their life, and you’re helping their nervous system heal. And it doesn’t necessarily have to make sense to you, as a therapist, trust that as symptoms decrease or their ability to talk to you about what they’re wanting, or like as those things shift, you’re probably on the right track. So trust your gut and trust the process and go with that.

 

Kim Howard  57:32

It’s a good way to end the podcast. Thank you, Laurel.

 

Laurel Thornton  57:34

Thank you for having me. It was fun.

 

Kim Howard  57:37

This has been the Let’s Talk EMDR podcast of our guests Laurel Thornton, visit www.emdria.org. For more information about EMDR therapy, or to use our Find an EMDR Therapist Directory with more than 15,000 therapists available. Like what you hear? Make sure you subscribe to this free podcast wherever you listen. Thanks for being here today.