Kim Howard  00:05

Welcome to the Let’s Talk EMDR podcast brought to you by the EMDR International Association, or EMDRIA. I’m your host, Kim Howard. In this episode, we talk with EMDR certified therapist, consultant and trainer, Jessica Crunkleton, about culturally sensitive EMDR therapy. Let’s get started. Today, we are speaking with EMDR certified therapist trainer and consultant Jessica Crunkleton, to discuss culturally responsive EMDR therapy. Thank you, Jessica, for being here today. We are so happy that you said yes.

 

Jessica Crunkleton  00:35

Thank you for having me. I’m glad to be here, Kim.

 

Kim Howard  00:38

Jessica, can you tell us about your path to becoming an EMDR therapist.

 

Jessica Crunkleton  00:41

Oh, yeah. So it’s been quite a journey. It starts in 2017 I was working at an agency in Northwest Indiana, and they were offering a training for EMDR and it was like $1,000 and I never paid that much for training before, and I remember thinking about this, this, this sounds really weird. I was like, I don’t know. I told my best friend. I’m like, Girl, they talking about $1,000; I don’t know about this. This sounds weird. And my best friend, she thinks a lot of things are conspiracy theories, but she told me. She’s like, No, this is real. Like, I’ve done the training, Jessica, this really does work. I use it in my practice. And she’s like, think about it like this, 10 people, $100 you got your money back. And I couldn’t deny the fact that, you know, I was doing a lot of talk therapy. I’m working with children and families in Northwest Indiana, involved with DCS juvenile probation, so in home, home base, in office, all that. And it was just like, sometimes it was working, but I also had a lot that were not getting better. So they weren’t they were getting worse, it seemed. And so I was like, I gotta find something else. So I couldn’t deny the fact that I felt like I needed something else. And I said, You know what? She’s right? I’ll give it a shot, you know? And it was honestly one of the best decisions I ever made in my life. I often talk about these points where you’re like, you you do things and they kind of change the whole course of your life. And for me, that was the moment. It was when I said yes, and I paid the money. And thankfully, I went through EMDR consulting, and they had payment plans, so I did, like four, four payment plan things, and did a two part training, and really enjoyed the training. The only challenge I would say for me in the training was number one, as a person of color, there was nobody else who were people of color in the room, and also as someone who is neuro divergent, we didn’t talk about people of color, we didn’t talk about neuro divergence, we didn’t talk about LGBTQI, plus any of these things in my training. And so I left feeling like this stuff can work, but I don’t know if I can do it. I don’t know if I’m good enough. And so it took me probably about a year to go beyond phase two, because I was terrified that somebody’s brain was going to fall out and it was going to be my fault. I was seriously. I was I had this whole thing in my head, how was going to happen, and it was going to be my fault. And thankfully, I was able to find my own EMDR therapist, and often tell people like this is so important, like, do your own work, and we work through that sense of responsibility and not feeling good enough. And then after that, it was like I was more open and ready. And so then I felt like I could do it. And then after that, it’s like everybody was getting EMDR, kids team, everybody, and it just really worked. And I leaned into it. Did well. Then I transitioned to a EAP setting, and I was also doing some private practice, and was thinking about certification, not sure, but then I was talking to my supervisor, and I’m like, I’m doing like, 70 plus percent. EMDR, I should be making more money. And she’s like, Well, I kind of agree with you. You’re a certified Alcohol Drug Abuse Counselor. We pay you more for that, but you’re not certified in EMDR, if you get certified, we’ll pay you more. And I was like, you gotta bet. So I got certified under the leadership of Paula Marucci of EMDR Chicago. It was great. And then it was like, You know what? Maybe I’ll keep going and become a consultant. And then that went well. And Paula had an opportunity for me to become a coach for her EMDR consulting. Did that, that went really well. So I’m traveling. That’s going well coaching for people. And then Paula says, you know, I’m thinking, you might have what it takes to be a trainer. And I’m like, No, I don’t think so. She’s like, No, you you can talk about culture, you got a lot of good stuff. And I’m like, I don’t know Paula, but she I thought about what she said, and I was like, Maybe I ain’t good enough, and why not? So that actually worked out, and it was during the pandemic, so it took a bit longer, but now I’m a trainer. I’ve been a trainer now for over a year, and yeah, so that’s my journey. That’s where I’m at. And I just it’s been such a fulfilling journey. So, so thankful; that was the best investment, the best $1,000 I ever spent.

 

Kim Howard  05:05

Yeah, we’re glad you did it, too. So we’re thankful that you, that we found you, and you found us, and we’re happy about that. And you’re not the first podcast guest to say, Oh, I heard about this EMDR therapy, and I thought, huh, yeah, I’m not sure about that, you know. But then somebody that they know in their circle of friends who are professional colleagues as well, says, oh, you should do this. They kind of keep coming back to it, and you sort of get, not nagged into it, but sort of like they keep, kind of like a woodpecker, they keep pecking at your your tree about, hey, don’t forget about this, the EMDR therapy. And so I’m glad that you found that. That’s a great that’s a great origin story. Thank you for sharing. And we do, we do get feedback from people. I mean, the therapy world is, unfortunately, like a lot of professions, it’s kind of not diverse as you would like it to be, you know, yeah. And so there is a struggle there to, you know, get out of that that focus on maybe only women, or mainly only white women. And so, you know, we’ve tried to do that with the work that we do at EMDR, but then also through our RESI program, through our EMDRIA Foundation, so that we can give scholarships to people, clinicians of color who want to, you know, enhance their career with the EMDR therapy and become a consultant, or become a trainer and become certified. And so those, those things are important. Because I used to work many, many years ago for lawyers, and I worked for a minority association as a consultant, and I remember the CEO used to say, “If you can’t see it, you can’t be it.” And I thought, Oh, that’s a good thing to remember, like when you’re a child growing up, or when you’re a young teen and or if you’re an older teen and trying to make decisions about your future. If you don’t see people like you, it’s true. And the professions that you are thinking about, you’re thinking, you think, Well, I don’t belong there. You know, they don’t have room for me. I’m not good enough to be there or fill in the blank and whatever. So if you can’t see other people, other professionals, that’s why things like career day at schools, any parents out there, or anybody that has children in their family, maybe aunts or uncles. That’s is so important for you to go to those career days at those schools and let the children know this is what I do for a living, and this is who I am, so they can understand a little bit more about the profession, especially if you’re a person of color in a profession, so that they can see that yes, I can, too do this. You know, this is not this is possible, and so I’m glad you shared that part of your story. Thank you.

 

Jessica Crunkleton  07:27

And I think also, one of the benefits has come out for me, becoming a trainer in our one of our training videos, Roy Keasling asked me to do a video about three years ago about becoming a trainer and then dealing with like racial trauma or discrimination and different things, and that sense of not good enough, and that is now in our training, and that is, I’ve had so many people through the years and like, you’re Jessica from the video, and they they said that’s helped them, and even trainers saying, hey, people watch your video, and then they process some of their own issues because they saw Your video. And so that visibility piece is so important, it really is, yeah.

 

Kim Howard  08:03

Yeah, it really is. And you, you’re the second guest on the podcast recently to mention EMDR Chicago. I’m trying to recall who mentioned it, and they also got their training there, and they said they had a really, really great, fantastic experience, yeah. So shout out to EMDR Chicago, keep doing what you’re doing. That’s awesome. Thank you guys. So yeah, what’s your favorite part of working with EMDR therapy?

 

Jessica Crunkleton  08:28

I’ll be honest with you, Kim, it’s the flexibility, I think, for me as an EMDR therapist, like it’s so fun, like some people think EMDR is rigid, and it’s really not like I use it with kids, teens, adults, couples, families, groups. I use it with BIPOC, neurodivergence. I’m using it with first responders. I’m using it, you know, in play, I integrate sand tray. I’m also certified in brain spotting, EMDR. It’s really like the O positive of therapist. And so it really can fit well with so many things. And so I really love the flexibility of it, to be able to transition and work with all these different things. And it really just gives me a structure, like the eight phases, three stages and things. I really just have this structure that I know how to work within, but then within that, I have so much freedom and fluidity that I can do a lot with that. So it really, I feel like it’s, it’s, there’s a safety in it, and again, there’s an art side to it and a science side. But it is just so flexible.

 

Kim Howard  09:31

Yeah, yeah. That’s a great answer. And I’m O positive. So shout out to all the O positive people out there helping everybody else with their their blood donations, we appreciate that. That’s good. That’s a good analogy. I really liked the way you did that. That’s good. That’s very clever, yeah. Jessica, what are the specific complexities or challenges when offering culturally responsive EMDR therapy?

 

Jessica Crunkleton  09:55

That’s a good that’s a good question. I think specific challenges. And things that I personally have faced, I think, and also what I’ve seen as a trainer is this sense, I think, for me, as a black woman, as a person of color, especially when I first started in Gary using it, I wanted to get right in, and I wanted to get into that stage too, and just jump in and fix all the stuff. And like, you know, like I have a magic wand, boom, and then they’re all healed. And it, it wasn’t working like that. And you have to kind of back it up. First of all, the pacing piece, slowing it down, really understanding the person that this in front of you and their story, connecting with them, understanding like systemic issues, power imbalances and so people you know, they, they all let you in, if they really know that you care. So not just trying to jump in and fix things. They I need to understand their story, and this may not be their first time in DCS or dealing with all these issues, but really understanding it from their lens, not what I think they need to you need to work on this childhood trauma, but they really want to work on a divorce, you know. So I think sometimes that part of it also, just because I’m black, that doesn’t mean that I’m going to understand every other black person’s story. We’re all different. You know, I am African American. I’m from the south. I grew up in poverty, a single parent, mom that can be quite different from someone who may be from Africa, who came over here, immigrated here with family, with more finances and different things. So just because we may look similar, that doesn’t mean that I just Oh, we’re black. I know their story, or because I’m neuro divergent, I know exactly what it’s like to be them and have ADHD. So I think that part of it sometimes just the slowing down part and not getting ahead of yourself, and really giving people time and getting to know them and their story and where they’re coming from, I think is so important.

 

Kim Howard  11:52

Yeah, good advice. So we’ve talked about this on the podcast before. People have mentioned it in the magazine as well, in terms of like you’re in even something simple as your intake forms. So when you’re getting the history from the client before you ever even meet with them, you’re asking the right kinds of questions in a way that they can answer that helps inform you, so that you can understand more about them, instead of making presumptions. And so that, I mean, I’m not saying people out there make presumptions, but I think all of us do, in in some small measure in our life, and so it’s good to have even procedural things like that in place that will help you as a therapist, get and deliver the best kind of therapy you can to your client, walking them to work. Because, you know, we’ve talked about this on the podcast before as well, is that, you know, you guys, really, if you might have, if you see 10 clients a day, you’ve got 10 customized therapy approaches. You know, you’re customizing your approach for every client who’s walking in the door. And that’s pretty astounding in terms of a workload that you guys do, because it’s not just cut and paste. Even if you’re working in a community setting or a DCS setting, like you said, even if you’re working within the confines of government entities, you’re still not cookie cuttering Your delivery methods in terms of your therapy to the clients that you’re seeing, because they’re so different, you know,

 

Jessica Crunkleton  13:08

they are different nervous systems and all these things. And also, you know, as we talk about imbalances and different things, you know, and also making sure that I’m using my clients right pronouns, I’m understanding their story through different lenses. So I’m looking at ACES, and I’m looking at what’s going on currently in their life, and also intergenerational stuff. And I like to use genogram, so yeah, there’s a lot of work that goes into that stage one. But again, this is something I’m always teaching, that that is the groundwork, that is the foundation, and if you lay good groundwork, you’re going to be more in tune. And I’m working on actual goals that the client wants to work on, not what I think they want to work on. And I’m also thinking about from an addiction kind of perspective. We often talk about Stages of Change, and I feel like in the mental health field and sometimes with EMDR, we don’t talk about that enough. You might be thinking the client is in motivation, and they’re really not. They don’t even recognize that there’s a problem or it’s everybody else’s fault. So the motivation is not going to be there to work on certain things. So really that pacing and attunement and exploring for like, blocking beliefs, potential secondary gain from the beginning is so important. Absolutely, I

 

Kim Howard  14:17

Absolutely, I think Jessica. Jessica, what successes have you seen as the EMDR therapy for these populations?

 

Jessica Crunkleton  14:23

Wow, so, so much success. So personally, again, through my journey, as I shared, I feel like this was the best investment that I’ve ever made. I feel like I what I really say is I feel like I work I was good before, Kim, don’t get me wrong. I feel like I was good before, but this has taken my work to another level, and I feel like it helps me to work smarter, not harder. I feel like I’m more in tune with people. I’m more you can pretty much throw just about anything at me, and I can throw it into that, look at it from those three stages in the phases, and kind of work through it. It may take longer with some but I can kind of pinpoint, like, where. We want to go, and where we may need to be, and just kind of checking in with the client. So I feel like that perspective has been so helpful. And again, as I shared I do long term, I do EAP, it actually helped me get my job with the DEA. So having that EMDR background was a benefit for that as well as as an EMDR trainer, what I’ve seen that’s really been it too, not only my client’s success, but watching other clinicians coming to the training and they’re nervous and they’re like, I can’t do this, and I do a lot of hours of consultation every day, but watching people the magic of it, and them seeing that it works, and them going back in their agencies and seeing a change that’s just been so rewarding.

 

Kim Howard  15:41

Yeah, absolutely, because you guys are, I’ve said this before, you guys are literally healing humanity. It is. That’s what the job of a therapist is, right is to heal somebody’s emotional and mental baggage. Yeah, you know. And so thank you guys for all that you do. Because, gosh, we are just so grateful for that. So we appreciate that.

 

Jessica Crunkleton  16:03

Glad to do it. And I think the other part of too is EMDR, I feel like before they would often say, in grad school, you have to learn how to compartmentalize and all this stuff and doing the work that I’ve done. You know, I have five kids, so I’m going out and working with children and family, and I just want to take the kids home. I want to bring them home. I’m waking up at night, oh my gosh, this person is smoking crack. How do I help them? And and I didn’t know how to contain. I didn’t I never knew how to contain, but when I came to the EMDR training, that’s actually the first time when I actually learned how to contain. So not only for me as a clinician, helping clients, but it’s also helped me, on a personal level, to learn how to put things away and things like that. So it’s really helped.

 

Kim Howard  16:47

Yeah, yeah, because you guys need to take care of yourself, self care, important.

 

Jessica Crunkleton  16:51

Yeah, absolutely.

 

Kim Howard  16:53

Are there any myths that you would like to invest about working with culturally responsive EMDR therapy?

 

Jessica Crunkleton  16:59

So, so many myths. There’s, there’s a lot of myths. And I think my goal, I said, for 2025, I’m going to stop arguing with people online. It’s been something that I’m trying to do better with, but it’s frustrating because I really love EMDR. And so when I’m seeing stuff like, you shouldn’t use EMDR with black people. It’s exploitative, and you should use brain spotting. And I’m training both. I’m like, Man, I’m Black. I’m in St Louis. I work with Black clients. I train people who are Black. All this talking about and so, like, where is this coming from? That’s just not true. In fact, this is one of the, you know, one of the challenges sometimes we can’t deny reality. There are things going on in the world and there, there is discrimination, there’s racism, there’s sexism, there’s all these things. So that’s a reality for clients, right? For me, personally I’ve experienced and for a lot of people I serve, so I can’t deny those things, but how do I help them to even though these things are going on, it doesn’t have to say negative things about you. And that’s the thing that I love about EMDR, is that empowerment piece, as I’m working with clients, especially from the intersectionality piece. So I may be queer and I’m neuro divergent and personal, you know, all these different things, and we can work on that sense of I don’t fit in, or I don’t belong, and help them to feel like they can get their needs met and so many things. And so I think that’s a big myth as well as you cannot do EMDR virtually. That’s not true. I do it all the time, quite successfully. So I think those are some of the or that you need, like 24 sessions. I don’t know where people get these numbers from, or it can’t be

 

Kim Howard  18:37

A nice even number, you know, 24…

 

Jessica Crunkleton  18:41

I don’t know what that’s about, or you have to be, like, five years sober. We don’t know whether people come up with this, but I hear stuff.

 

Kim Howard  18:50

Yeah, well, we’ve, we’ve interviewed a few guests on the podcast about addictions. And yes, one podcast guest Julie Miller, I remember her specifically talking about that among the therapy community. It’s like, oh, well, this person has to be sober. Now, you don’t want somebody to be high or  drunk when they’re coming into a therapy session, but if you wait for somebody to be quote, unquote sober, it could be years down the road. You know, that person might be dry for a while, but they’re not going to be fully sober, and so you they’re they’re dealing with their trauma by using or drinking. So if you can’t heal the trauma, the drinking and the using, are gonna continue. So you gotta heal the trauma first, and then you can work on the soberness. So yeah, absolutely. I’m glad you mentioned that. Thank you.

 

Jessica Crunkleton  19:31

Yes.

 

Kim Howard  19:32

Jessica, what advice do you have for EMDR, therapist listening on how they can help their diverse clientele?

 

Jessica Crunkleton  19:40

This is a good one. I think number one, and I’ve often said this, some people would think I would say, you want to understand other cultures, and that’s true, but I think you have to do your own work, and I think this is so important, because from that space, as you understand where you come from, more your history, what. Working on your own stuff. That creates this space where I can, you can show up for other people and hold space for them, because part of what their trauma may be with someone who looks similar to you, and so when they come in and they need to talk about these things, you can broach the topic versus, ooh, I’m going to lean back, or, you know, I know them, or that’s, you know, that’s my church, and that’s, I don’t know, that’s really what happened, like you’re going to lose them. So you want to be authentic and showing up, creating space, being able to take feedback from others. Yes, the education piece is important. So, you know, reading books, trainings, I’m constantly training, because there’s always more to learn. And just, I think, the the cultural humility, pieces, that openness, not a sense of, you know, I know. I know, like for me, I am African American, but that doesn’t mean I know all black people. I don’t. I know me, but I’m still learning me, but I’d like to get to know you, and what is it like to be you, and how do you show up in the world? And so creating that space for people where they can share who they are, and I’m listening and being supportive of them, and not aware of when my own biases come up, I think that’s the other part. Sometimes people aren’t aware of that, and doing that’s where that doing your own work is going to play a role, so that you can create space for them. And if there’s things that you need to work on, you’ll be able to do that versus getting frustrated with them, or they’re resistant, and that may not be it at all. You just don’t get them.

 

Kim Howard  21:30

Yeah, good advice, Jessica, thank you. You may have touched on this already, but let me ask the question anyway, in case you want to elaborate. What would you like people outside of the EMDR community to know about EMDR therapy with this population?

 

Jessica Crunkleton  21:43

I think again, just that, that sense, the EMDR can work for BIPIC, neurodivergence, LGBTQI, plus it can work for a wide range of clients, kids, teens, adults, all these different populations. Now, again, I think the education piece is definitely going to be important, supervision, consultation, all that. But there isn’t this sense of, because a person has complex trauma, they can’t do EMDR, like some of these myths that are out there and things like that or that, you know, because a lot of people like EMDR, then that means I need to hate it that, yeah, I just hear a lot of different things out there and people or it’s hypnosis. That’s a big one, first responders. It’s not hypnosis. It’s really not it’s not so, yeah, stuff like that. That’s just not true. That is not true. People are in control. You can say, No, you can you know, consent can be given, but it can also be withdrawn at any time. And we, we want to be respectful of that absolutely, absolutely.

 

Kim Howard  22:39

How do you practice cultural humility as an EMDR therapist, Jessica?

 

Jessica Crunkleton  22:43

Again, I think I go back to that sense of doing my own work, always trying to for feedback, taking in what others are sharing. I am doing my own work in terms of therapy. I’m taking trainings to learn as much as I can about areas that I don’t know enough about and just being with people, sitting with them, not making assumptions. I found just that place of curiosity really can be helpful in in playfulness, getting and going into people’s worlds and finding different ways to connect with them, not just or like even the bilateral stimulation. You know, I I can do eye movements, but I also have buzzies, and I have auditory and I have paint brushes, and I have magic wands, I have all kinds of stuff. We can even the the song. What is it? Kendrick Lamar, “They Not Like Us”. Like that can be used for therapy. So really about having fun with it, you know, and so embracing that cultural melody piece and that openness and awareness and just that curiosity piece is kind of where I like to stay at.

 

Kim Howard  23:52

Yeah, we’ve talked about this before, and we’ve written about it on the blog and in the magazine about play therapy and art therapy and the ways that you can use it for certain clients. And also, like you said, music is, you know, you can use drums. You can use anything that would help you keep a sort of a beat going on during the BLS. And so that’s really important, especially EMDR therapist, to know that they can incorporate those kinds of things into their practice and help their client. Plus, I think it makes a little more interesting when you’re, quite frankly, when you’re in therapy room. You’re in therapy room, right? If you’ve got some music, yeah.

 

Jessica Crunkleton  24:25

Yeah, and I think too, you know, this goes into when, when I met with my therapist for EMDR, one of the things we talked, we did was she helped me create a wise figure. And that was so powerful. It was Maya Angelou, and she has a connection to Arkansas, like me and Saint Louis and those a lot of places. And that’s, that’s who I connect with. And and then we added in courageous figure, Claire Huxtable, and then we added in Claire was a nurturing figure. So then we added in a protective figure, is Jesus. So this is a way I really think, with EMDR, I can bring in a person’s. Culture, identity, all these different things, and I’m using what works for them, and I get to know them and things that they make connections with, things that are important to them. And that’s where I’ve really seen people, not just kids, but clients of all ages. They really just are like, they really get excited about that when we can do things like that. Yeah, absolutely.

 

Kim Howard  25:18

Thank you. Jessica, do you have a favorite free EMDR related resource you would suggest, either for the public or other EMDR therapists?

 

Jessica Crunkleton  25:27

This is hard, because I am the resource queen. That’s kind of what I’m known as. So tons of resources, I think, like LinkedIn, following like myself and others on on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is huge. LinkedIn. I follow a lot of the people in the EMDR field, they’re always dropping studies and different things. But Facebook, Facebook is great. Facebook groups like the EMDR therapist resource group has over 30,000 EMDR therapists all around the world that help admin that group. There’s EMDR, black clinicians, EMDR and play therapy, EMDR, ifs and those groups, I always, often talk about a village. We need a village. And that’s one of the challenges for people as they transition out of the basic training. If they don’t go into certification, sometimes they lose that village. And I think communities like this that are free is a way for you to be able to kind of scroll through or if you have a question, or you can always pull resources off. There’s always somebody, the light’s always on for you to get support.

 

Kim Howard  26:26

Yeah, that’s great. Great advice. Thank you. If you weren’t an EMDR therapist, Jessica, what would you be?

 

Jessica Crunkleton  26:32

Ooh, this is hard….what would that be? You know, I was going to be a teacher. I was going to be a history professor, but in college, the professor was talking about Civil War, and he was so enthusiastic about and I was like, this is kind of old stuff. I’m just not that into this. But then I took a psych class and they were talking about Freud. And I was like, this is interesting stuff. I think, you know, it’s funny though, because I’m an EMDR, therapist, private practice, owner, and all these things. But I’m also I get to do, I get to do some of the professor stuff as a trainer. So I feel like I still get to, you know, I get to teach, and I get to teach about trauma and things like that. So it’s, it’s interesting. I feel like I get to do so many things. Yeah, I still get to do so many things within this real, yeah, absolutely.

 

Kim Howard  27:20

My mom used to tell me that the Bible says God gives you 10 talents. You have 10 talents as a human being. Yeah, you’re given those. It’s up to us to find them and use them for the world. So you can be like you said. You can be a professional, you can be a mother, you can be a teacher, you can do all of those things within the confines of of your work. And that’s a talent, right? That’s a skill set that you’ve gotten somewhere, yeah, online, so yeah, and you’re sharing that with your community. That’s wonderful, and

 

Jessica Crunkleton 27:47

it’s interesting. I never would have seen myself become a trainer, and that’s getting the progression of EMDR, because I just was going to be, you know, CBT therapist, not there’s anything wrong with that. I was just kind of being that talk therapy realm, but again, making that decision to invest in myself, pay the money, lean in, go all the way in, even when I was scared that somebody’s brain was going to fall out, and working through that I’m not good enough. And as I shared so professionally and personally, like just the journey that EMDR has been, I’m just I’m just so thankful because I never would have 2017 if you would have told me, this is where I’d be, 2025 and like, No way. I don’t know, but here I am.

 

Kim Howard  28:27

Yeah, that’s wonderful. Is there anything else you want to add?

 

Jessica Crunkleton  28:29

Yeah, I think again, EMDR, is, is a journey. And I say this, just lean in trust the process. That’s what they told me back in 2017 and it’s something I repeat all the time. You’re not going to know it all, and that’s okay. Trust the process. Lean in. You’re enough. You always were, and you always will be great.

 

Kim Howard  28:51

That’s a great way to end the podcast. Thank you, Jessica.

 

Jessica Crunkleton  28:53

Thank you.

 

Kim Howard  28:54

This has been the Let’s Talk EMDR Podcast with our guest, Jessica Crunkleton. Visit www.EMDRIA.org for more information about EMDR therapy, or to use our Find an EMDR Therapist Directory with more than 17,000 therapists available. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this free podcast wherever you listen. Thanks for being here today.