Kim Howard  00:00

Kim, welcome to the Let’s Talk EMDR podcast brought to you by the EMDR International Association, or EMDRIA. I am your host. Kim Howard. In this episode, we talk with EMDR, certified therapist and consultant Christopher Brown, about EMDR therapy and high stress careers. Let’s get started. Today, we are speaking with EMDR, certified therapist and consultant Chris Brown, to discuss the role of EMDR therapy in niche populations. Thank you, Chris, for being here today. We are so happy that you said yes.

 

Chris Brown  00:34

Yeah. Thank you. Happy to be here. This is exciting.

 

Kim Howard  00:36

Chris, psychotherapy was not your first career path. You’re a Purple Heart winner from your United States Marine Corps service. Can you tell us about your path to becoming an EMDR therapist?

 

Chris Brown  00:46

Yeah. So I graduated high school without any plans for my future, and military service looked like a viable option, and that was back in 2004 so the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were still pretty prevalent part of our regular news cycle. And I joined the Marines kind of assuming I was going to be going into war. And the Marines had this reputation for being good at what they do in a war zone. So I thought, Oh, well, maybe that’s a good call in terms of survivability. That was my 18 year old sort of logic.

 

Kim Howard  01:31

But oh, we’re so young. We’re so young.

 

Chris Brown  01:36

Yeah, exactly. But the term winner when it comes to the Purple Heart award is one of those strange things, because it’s the one of the only awards in the military that nobody really wants to get

 

Kim Howard  01:50

Yes, correct.

 

Chris Brown  01:51

[It] signifies that you were wounded in in combat. So I received that on my second deployment. Actually, I I did three deployments total in four years, and on the second one, I was wounded. You know, by the time I got out from the three deployments my unit went on, we had 41 Marines who were killed in action, and I was pretty burnt out at that point, so I left the military not really knowing what was next, but understanding that the GI bill would allow me to pursue school. And actually started, I did a year of classes for computer information systems, thinking I’d get into it. And during that process, I was in my own therapy and actually did EMDR with the EMDR provider, and benefited a lot from that. And coupled that with a psychology class that I had to take just for my general education requirements, I kind of paused and reflected on my career choice at the time, and decided if I’m going to change my path, this is a good time to do it, and decided to pursue counseling instead. So that was kind of what led me into this field. That’s

 

Kim Howard  03:10

a great story. And that is, I’m trying to think that podcast has been going on since June of 2022 I think that is, your story is unique. I think you’re the first person to come to the therapy world and EMDR therapy that route and that way. So we’re glad to have you here. We’re happy that the therapy worked. Thank you, and that you decided to pursue it as a career path. That’s amazing.

 

Chris Brown  03:35

I was just going to say I’m very grateful for that. And when I got hired as a therapist. One of my first questions was, When can I take the EMDR training? Wow, there you go. Paying it forward.

 

Kim Howard  03:48

Yeah, that’s amazing. I mean, you’re not the first guest we’ve had who who did their own EMDR therapy and sort of came to it that way, but you are the first guest who was active duty and then came to EMDR therapy through your own therapy. So that is kind of new and unique, and we love to hear those origin stories. So thank you for sharing that. Chris, what is your favorite part of working with EMDR therapy?

 

Chris Brown  04:12

I have two favorites, if that’s okay?

 

Kim Howard  04:15

Yeah.

 

Chris Brown  04:16

One of them is kind of more micro. The other is more macro. My favorite part of EMDR on the micro scale is the sessions with a client where they, you know, have have started to dive in with their EMDR processing work, working through some really difficult thoughts, feelings, emotions, and like I can see on their face real time when that shift happens. And it’s like I sometimes it’s almost like I can predict that the next check in, what are you noticing is going to be something. It is more adaptive. And you know, you could see it on their face, the way that their non verbals are presenting. And then, you know, moving into positive cognition, and having the opportunity to do future templates with this new adaptive awareness that they’re developing, witnessing at real time is one of my favorite parts. Yeah. And then at the more macro level, just being able to pause and reflect after spending, you know, usually, a few months with a client doing this work, reflecting on where they were at, when they first showed up, and where they’re at now, after all the hard work that they’ve done and seeing, like, tangible changes in their relationships and their outlook, I think a lot of EMDR therapists know exactly what I’m talking about. It’s a pretty awesome thing to witness.

 

Kim Howard  05:56

Yeah, you’re literally watching that healing happen in the therapy room. So that’s, that’s pretty rewarding. I mean, I can see why that would be, would be a good thing to to enjoy about, about being a therapist. So, yeah, that’s awesome.

 

Chris Brown  06:11

Yeah, one of my former colleagues actually would, would often say doing an EMDR training is one of the unique things that can breathe new life into a burned out therapist. It was an interesting perspective, but I I’ve actually seen it come true with a few colleagues since then, if you’re feeling like you’re not able to help a client get on, you know, unstuck, so to speak, and then have this tool that you can use all the time to make that happen. It’s very rewarding. And I think can bode well for longevity in the field as well.

 

Kim Howard  06:56

Yeah, absolutely, it does help. I think I mean professionals in general. You know, any professional can get burned out, but I would presume that people who are in certain high stress jobs and people who do therapy work. I mean, you’re you’re in the room all day, and you’re listening to other people’s oftentimes very traumatic life events, and you’re soaking all of that in. And so I can see how quickly you would not only need your own therapy, but how you have to self care, and how you can probably burn out pretty quickly, and especially if you’re in or working with some kind of modality where you’re not maybe seeing the progress as quickly. It might take longer. And so that’s kind of stretches out, you know, that stress level. So, yeah, I can, I can see why EMDR therapy would work for that. Chris, can you name which niche population do you work with currently?

 

Chris Brown  07:49

Yeah, I think majority of my clients would just fall into the category of high stress professions. I’ve got military, veterans, first responders, entrepreneurs. I’ve worked with a few creative types, musicians, business executives, tech professionals. So a lot of a lot of folks in high stress professions is kind of the niche area that I’m working with these days. I worked seven years at the VA with combat veterans and military sexual trauma survivors, so that’s kind of like my foundational background. But since I’ve moved into private practice that’s expanded a little bit.

 

Kim Howard  08:35

So what are the specific complexities or challenges during EMDR therapy with treating the populations that you just mentioned honestly.

 

Chris Brown  08:44

I think the most consistent challenge that I’ve run up against throughout my career so far is addressing stigma and like educating people as to the merits of EMDR therapy, how it can help, why it can help. You know, those, those stigmatized internal barriers to taking those steps, and you know, moving through the discomfort in order to get to a place of relief, sometimes that’s a challenge. I it’s something I struggled with, especially early on in my career. I feel like I’ve developed some pretty standard templates that I lean on and in kind of navigating those conversations with folks. I mean, it still shows up, but it doesn’t become as strong of a barrier as it used to. And I think similar to this is coming from more of like an ifs informed perspective, just acknowledging the protector in the room. There’s, there’s a training I saw recently. I think it was titled, befriending the protector. With EMDR, you know, with, with these kind of clients, maybe particularly, I don’t know if this is generalizable for all people, but you know, a lot of times the protector shows up very strongly. And, you know, can come up with all sorts of excuses or reasons not to do this work, and so that can be a challenge too. But I’ll, you know, I kind of just bring that into my like the preparation phase working up to EMDR is if that’s if that’s a parent, just spending a little bit more time trying to befriend the protector, to help the client feel more safe, more comfortable with the process, right?

 

Kim Howard  10:46

Yes, there’s two things I want to I want to say, first of all, the populations that you work with that that, I think that sounds on point with the kind of work that they do, right? If you’re in any kind of leadership role, if you’re any, any kind of emergency responder, any kind anybody’s in the service, anybody who has been put in a position to take care of, yeah, and, or protect other people and, or even lead other people, if they’re a senior VP or some kind of CEO situation, it’s really difficult for them to let go of that persona, you know, In terms of what they do for a living versus how they need to be in a therapy room. And so it’s good that you that you mentioned that. And the second thing I want to say, and I haven’t said this on the podcast in a while, just remind people that people are super brave for going to therapy. You know, if you have a broken finger, you’re going to go to the doctor and get your finger taken care of. If you’re sick, you’re sick, you’re going to go to the doctor. If you’re struggling mentally or emotionally, you go to the therapist, and there it’s the same thing. I know it’s sort of the last stigma in society. You know, discussing your mental health, I think it’s a lot better than it used to be. People are open about it, which I’m glad to see. So just a reminder, if you think about going to therapy, do it because you’re brave. You’ve thought about it, and you need to go, and you’ve recognized that, and if you’ve already in therapy, you are brave for being there. So just treat yourself kinder, I guess, about that whole process.

 

Chris Brown  12:16

Yes, I will add. You know, this is, this has been a challenge. It was very common at the VA because, you know, these were all other veterans. But even now in private practice, that comes up when people learn about my own experience, you know, because I it’s on my website, on my bio, like I served in the military. I was wounded early on in the process, there’s usually this like statement that comes across kind of as a question, and it kind of seems like the client’s trying to gage whether or not they are like their problems are worthy of this sort of service, and so that’s been a challenge that I’ve had to address a lot. And I always tell people, you know, everyone’s experience is unique, and it’s relative to your life and your own experience. And by comparing yourself to me or anyone else, you’re really not doing yourself any favors. And like, what really matters is making the time and space for you to heal whatever you’ve been through, and just like trying to normalize the human experience, we’re all in this together. Does it matter what I’ve done or what the next person has done, right? Like, taking that step, being courageous, regardless, is what really matters here.

 

Kim Howard  13:48

Yeah, that? No, you’re right about that. And I, I think a lot of people would probably approach it that way, like, Oh, my, my stuff is not as deep as someone else’s, or I wasn’t as hurt. I’m not as hurt as someone else, you know, and and so I feel like what you just said is really good advice for people to remember, because there is enough trauma in the world to go around. You know, no no joke aside, but you know it’s there are plenty of opportunities for people to become traumatized. Therapists are here to help that, heal that. So go, go get it done. So thank you for reminding us of that. Yeah, of course, Chris, what successes have you seen using EMDR therapy for these populations? You’ve mentioned it a little bit, but in case you want to add on anything, let me know. Yeah.

 

Chris Brown  14:37

I mean, that is, I’m trying to think of a few key examples. I mean majority of clients will gain some heightened level of self awareness and insight and understanding into like, the question of, why? Am I experiencing these symptoms? You know, when you provide some psycho education and help people understand how experiences in your life can affect your nervous system and how that can lead to, you know, these blockages that contribute to symptoms. I’ve had several people say, after kind of those first phases of treatment, developing more awareness of all this. It’s like, so you mean, I’m not crazy, like, there’s actually an explanation for this. And no, you were not people really. It’s really cool being able to normalize that and help people understand how this all works. But once people have done the work and kind of gotten those trauma stress based blockages unstuck, the outcomes can look like, sobriety can look like improve. Relationships can look like, you know, being able to return to work and and thrive back in a work setting. One of the things I’ve been helping a lot of first responders with lately is developing that ability to turn off the work mode when they’re going back home, and then turn it back on when they’re returning to work. And you know, using one of the things that I didn’t pay a lot of attention to in the first few years as an EMDR therapist, but once I started going down the certification track, doing a lot of consultation with some really awesome providers, I started to pay more attention and started to appreciate a lot more the role of feature templates. This is something that is kind of like in the back page of the protocol, and, you know, it can easily be ignored or forgotten, but it actually seems to be one of the most important parts of the of the protocol in terms of long term resiliency. You know, when people are able to rehearse navigating future stressors and challenges with a more adaptive way of thinking and perceiving and behaving and feeling in that kind of environment, it actually like becomes reality at some point when the next stressor comes around, and that’s really cool to be able to kind of support people and having that sort of foundation, I think that is in part why, you know, the deep friend protocol for depression, they they’ve shown that it can support prevention of future relapse of major depressive episodes. I think there’s something to that that we need to be at least acknowledging more. Yeah, I don’t know, did that answer the question?

 

Kim Howard  17:49

Yeah, yeah, that did. And I think back to when I gave birth to my children, and at the time it was called Lamaze I think now they might be called birthing classes. I don’t exactly know what they’re called, but you know, there were several options that you could use in terms of getting through the labor and focusing on the end result without the help of drugs. That’s kind of the whole purpose of natural childbirth. And Lamaze, one of them was visualization, and the other one was like looking at a picture that you know brought you peace or someplace where you were happy. And so those kinds of things that we see in our mind, in our memories, if we can remember those things when we’re in a stressful situation, it can, it can get us through. And so I’m glad that you sort of explained what a future template is to all of the non listeners who are not in the therapy world, who might be interested in EMDR therapy. So you could explain sort of what a little bit about what that is, because that that is important for us to exercise our mind in that way. So thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, of course, yeah. Are there any myths you would like to bust about working with EMDR therapy and those populations mentioned?

 

Chris Brown  18:58

Yeah, there was actually a conversation on LinkedIn recently about this. I’ll try to remember the few things that I read. The first one that I think comes to mind is that this is basically hypnotism. It’s not, not even close. I actually, when I first got trained, I was, I was unsure of that and and to test it, you know, it during a cognitive interweave, I would kind of ask a question that I really wasn’t sure of the answer, to see if the if the client was like, suggestible, or like, whatever, and if it was off base, they would tell me right away. So it’s like that confirmed it for me. It’s like there’s no suggestibility here, like this is not hypnotism at all, right? The other one that comes to mind is the the critiques around EMDR not really being thoroughly researched. Like it’s. Pseudoscience. I don’t, I don’t understand that really, because there’s quite a bit of research that’s been done. You know, I looked on PubMed yesterday just to, just to see type in EMDR therapy. There’s 1000 search results. And there was a study back in 2016 that I think it was like 25 empirically validated, controlled trials that support EMDR outcomes like this is this is a legit, evidence based practice. It’s been used for years now with the Department of Veterans Affairs, Department of Defense. It’s been acknowledged by the World Health Organization, major institutions that really have a stake in mental health have all said that this is an evidence based practice. I always scratch my head when I when I see people still questioning that. I think a question that does remain is whether or not the AIP theory is the best way to explain EMDR, I can’t think of a study that I’ve read that proves it wrong. I think it’s just hard to like fully prove it right, because it’s so complex in in the way that Francine Shapiro crafted that so that might take a bit more time for people to to fully appreciate, but you know, at the end of the day, I just think about how much it has helped me in my own life, and you know, the hundreds of other people that I’ve seen it help through my own practice, I only care so much about what the research says, and then I’d lean on like real life observations. And that’s something that one of my old colleagues would talk about too, is how as providers we are, we are kind of at the forefront of the field, and it can take years for research to, like, catch up to what we’re doing. And on the other side of that, I remember working with the research team at the VA, and they said that it I think the estimate was, like, it was crazy, like 15 or 20 years for research that’s validated to become a common practice in the medical field. So, you know, you think about the decades of time that it seems to take, I think we’re still in the infancy, even though EMDR has been around since the late 80s, early 90s. I also think we’re getting to a point where people really do appreciate its validity, because there’s so many success stories you can’t ignore that.

 

Kim Howard  22:48

Yeah, absolutely. And I’m glad that you mentioned how old EMDR therapy is, because it really is one of the newest therapies out there. So do we have, you know, hundreds of 1000s of research studies? No, because we’ve only been around the concept of EMDR therapy has only been around for 45-ish years, 40 years or so, you know. And if you think about it, you know PTSD, which is sort of how EMDR first came about, to treat that that that issue at the beginning, that’s only been in the DSS manual since the, what, mid to late 70s. Maybe I can’t remember the exact date. And so that concept of, you know, people coming back from, mostly, it started really, with soldiers, right? People coming back from a war and having issues. And so that concept has only been, there’s only been a name to it, the official name, you know, for just a few decades, even though it’s been in existence pretty much since people, men, mostly, have been fighting hundreds of years, right? But nobody could put a name on it at the time. So, you know, even that’s still pretty young. In terms of diagnosis, it’s good to remind people that, yeah, we’re not, we’re not like, you know, other therapists that have been around for, you know, hundreds of years, but, you know, yeah, still help you. So

 

Chris Brown  24:07

the, I think it was the deep friend protocol training, they use the the term adverse experience instead of trauma. And when I’m doing my psycho education with clients, I often talk about caveman or cave woman, like when caveman or cave woman witnessed their friend get mauled by Saber Tooth, there was a there was a physiological response in their nervous system that led to all these changes that may have improved their survivability at the time, but you know now that we’re in this complex society, it’s especially this is especially true with like war veterans. You know now that you’re home, your your nervous system is no longer in the environment that these changes were created in, but it’s now like. Are hardwired to be looking for these threats, and the way that it manifests can lead to the symptoms that create a lot of problems with people. But that, that idea that, like this sort of nervous system response to our environment, is really just baked into our DNA, and it’s part of the human experience, and this is a tool that can help resolve some of the most challenging parts of that in our modern day world.

 

Kim Howard  25:29

Absolutely, I interviewed a podcast guest late last month, and I thought this is a really good way to describe it, but I don’t know that everybody would understand, but she talked about how your brain sort of has to be defrag. And I thought, oh, only people that worked on that, you know, worked in on older computers, might understand that kind of stuff. Back in the day, we used to have to defrag, quote, unquote, our hard drives on our computer, which means we had to take all the little files that were out of place. We ended up in a back in the right spot. You don’t have to do that. Now, I don’t know where the technology changed, or what guru came up with a solution for that, but nobody has to, quote, unquote, defrag a computer anymore, and so most people may not know what that concept is, but I thought that was a good analogy visually, you know, like these, all these parts are out of place, and you’re just sort of putting the puzzle pieces, and you’re putting them back in the right spot so they fit. And I thought, Oh, that’s a really good way to visualize that for people. So, yeah, yeah.

 

Chris Brown  26:21

Well, that Pagani study, they took pictures of the brain before and after EMDR, and before EMDR, the memory, when, when the person’s recalling the memory, the part of the brain that’s lighting up is, like, right near the fight or flight center, you know, the amygdala, that like the core part of the brain, and post EMDR, now it’s out. It’s further away in the cortex. And this is like this. This is, these are pictures of the brain showing how this memory reconsolidation stuff is happening. So yeah, I think visuals do help, especially when it’s like, actual pictures of the game.

 

Kim Howard  26:21

Yeah, it’s pretty cool to see that. You’re like, this is the brain on PTSD before the EMDR therapy, and this is the brain after. And you’re like, Whoa. The colors are completely different. Like, the whole map of the brain has literally changed. And so it’s, it’s pretty interesting to to see that as well. And that’s, that’s how you know that something somewhere did that. Yeah. And the only thing that changed, the only delta that changed, was the therapy. And so that’s, that’s pretty conclusive to me. So I agree, Chris. Have what advice do you have for EMDR, therapist listening on how they can help niche population clients?

 

Chris Brown  27:47

Well, I think, I think it never hurts to seek consultation. You know, if you are entering into something that feels like it’s at the edge of your scope of practice or competency level, seeking training and consultation is always a good call. I think understanding some of the unique presentations of these clients can also provide I guess, more tools for your toolbox. And the things that I’m thinking of are kind of the comorbidities with substance abuse, chronic pain, depression, suicidal ideation. You know, these kind of things we Now, fortunately, have other special application protocols that we can use to support clients who are presenting with these other conditions. Usually it’s on top of trauma and even like performance enhancement, there’s a work group that people can join through EMDR, and there’s a few good trainings out there, but I think a lot of these trainings so there’s, there’s deep red, there’s in the performance enhancement. One those two especially, I think, really help expand the conceptualization of target sequence planning, and kind of, at least give you more of an informed decision making process for like, why are we targeting? What we’re targeting and what might we anticipate? This can help with the most, but even the like, the feeling state addiction protocol, I’ve used that a lot with clients and the mark grants pain protocol. These are also really good protocols for helping support the client. Kind of change the relationship that they might have with their pain or with the substance, and lead to more adaptive hours. Comes. So I guess in short training, consultation, and you know, continue to sharpen your skill sets with learning about some of these other specialized protocols.

 

Kim Howard  30:14

Absolutely good advice. Chris, thank you. Yeah, what would you like people outside of the EMDR community to know about EMDR therapy with these populations.

 

Chris Brown  30:26

I think that EMDR, because of kind of its origin story like you shared a minute ago, has been most heavily associated with a PTSD treatment, and it is. It does great with that. That’s what the basic protocol is for. That’s what a lot of the research is around. However, when you start to kind of take, take away the trauma label and fill it with the adverse life experiences like conceptualization, you realize that EMDR can support most people who are dealing with emotional distress, mental blocks. You know, they don’t necessarily have to experience big T trauma stuff in order to benefit. So that’s, that’s what I would say. You don’t necessarily have to have PTSD in order to benefit from EMDR. It can actually support a lot of other mental health goals as well.

 

Kim Howard  31:33

That’s correct, and we have web pages dedicated to that, but we have the, you know, the main web page that talks about, oh, here’s all the issues that EMDR can help with. But we’re also starting to create more detailed pages about EMDR and anxiety, or other issues that EMDR can treat beyond PTSD, so that people are aware. And we’ve talked about this before on the podcast, and I will reiterate, in case anybody out there is new, you have to do your homework as a dental client and find a therapist who you think is going to be the right fit for you, sort of like trying on shoes, like you go to a consultation, and if the shoe doesn’t fit, move on to the next therapist. I know that’s easier said than done, sometimes based on people’s availability, but you have to do that homework, and then the therapist job is to find out which modality is going to work best for your issues. And so it really is an art backed up by science that happens in the therapy room. And so people need to be aware that sometimes they may recommend a modality for you that you had no idea could treat what your issues are. So you just have to be a little open to that. So, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Chris, how do you practice culture humility as an EMDR therapist?

 

Chris Brown  32:47

For that, I try to remain aware of the intersection of, you know, power, privilege, oppression, and how it can relate to social, cultural, religious, ethno, like all these different potential identities that we show up to as we relate to others. And you know, when it comes to I’m a white male who served in the military and is now a therapist, is a disabled veteran, so, like, I have my own kind of weird intersection, but because it is weird and unique, I try not to assume anything about anyone else’s intersection. And, you know, I do my best to remain open and curious and inviting clients to share and help me understand if there’s areas I don’t but also not expecting them to have to. And you know, if I need to seek in my own consultation or research to try and learn more about maybe a specific cultural experience that I have not had any experience with in order to better show up and support folks, but and at the same time, I try to remember that add an adverse life experience or trauma is likely going To have a similar impact on someone’s nervous system, regardless of their their background might be. And so trying to trust, and I do I trust the EMDR protocol, to trust that you know, regardless of of how someone might be showing up in their own identity, in their own experience, trusting that EMDR will still be able to help support them. Yeah, that, I guess that’s the long answer.

 

Kim Howard  34:50

Yeah, no, that’s, that’s good information to remember. Chris, do you have a favorite free EMDR related resource, if it’s just either for the public or other EMDR therapists?

 

Chris Brown  35:01

Well, I would guess podcasts like this are always good. The I know the EMDR website has a lot of good stuff. You know, for therapists, I know it’s not for you to become a member or do the trainings, but it is reasonably priced if you’re a member, I don’t know if I’m allowed to, like, make a plug. Here you can go ahead. I am thinking. I haven’t fully committed yet, but it’s starting to feel like the right thing. I’m thinking about putting together kind of a short podcast series that has some educational recordings, kind of talking people through some of the different special applications that I use, and, you know, some of the considerations that you might make with some of the niche populations that we talked about earlier. And I do hope to build kind of an agency around this, to bring in other EMDR providers who might want to work with this kind of population and find creative ways to be that connector. I’m hopeful that that will work out. There are plenty of books, Marilyn Luber’s books with a lot of different special protocols. Obviously, these cost a little bit of money. There are also some protocols that you can find online with a Google search, and you know, even just reading through studying some of the protocols that are freely available and speaking to therapists now, obviously studying the protocols that are available if you have a strong enough comfort level with the basic protocol. If you start studying some of the special applications, you’ll be able to see how they sort of relate to the basic protocol, how they differ. And, you know, maybe start getting a clearer picture of when it might be most applicable for what kind of clients. That’s honestly how I started with the pain protocol, because I was seeing a lot of vets at the VA with chronic pain issues, and the there wasn’t a lot of resources available to them for pain management. And so I looked at I was like, there must be a protocol for this, and I found it online, and there you go. Mark Grant, yeah, and I was honest with the clients, like, you know, this is, this is something that’s new to me. It might be able to help, you know, do you want to give it a try? And, you know, the first few clients that I did it with, they ended up with some really solid resources to help manage their day to day pain with. And I was like, wow, this is pretty neat, and it became something that I’ve also used in some of the earlier stages to help people understand the connection between the somatic experience of their pain and the trauma as sort of a pathway into doing the trauma work, and that’s like a whole nother rabbit hole. I’m sorry. I’ll stop there.

 

Kim Howard  38:12

Yeah, no, that’s good information. And what I’ll do is I’ll link some of those things that you mentioned in the description, because, you know, we have the opportunity to do that so people can go check it out themselves. And Mark Grant have contributed to Andrea conferences and the magazine, and he really knows his stuff. And so I think I feel like most people, if they have chronic pain, you know, if they can do something other than take a pill for it, they would prefer to do that, you know, whether that pill is an Advil or whether it’s a prescription pill. You know, they would prefer that over taking medication every day. And so if they can find a solution to help manage that, hey, exactly. More power to them, because, you know, that’s good for them all over. So, yeah, Chris, if you weren’t an EMDR therapist, what would you be?

 

Chris Brown  39:03

I don’t know. I mean, based on my story, I could have been in it. I guess I also kind of like the idea of running a boring business, like a car wash, or,

 

Kim Howard  39:17

Oh my God. We live in South Carolina, and I swear there are more car washes here per capita than there are gas stations. I cannot believe it. My husband and I moved from Northern Virginia here two and a half years ago, and I do not understand why there are so many car washes. I’m like, do people here really…are they really that concerned about how clean their cars are? There’s almost like, literally one on every corner I got the two gas stations here and  two drug stores. It’s like car wash heaven here. I don’t, I don’t know what the deal is, but apparently there’s supposed to be good profitability in car washes. I don’t know. I don’t anything about them.

 

Chris Brown  39:53

So, I wouldn’t want to change what I do. I love this work.

 

Kim Howard  39:57

Well, that’s, that’s the answer, right there. It’s a good. Right, perfect. Is there anything else you want to add Chris?

 

Chris Brown  40:02

I can’t think of anything else. I appreciate this. This has been fun.

 

Kim Howard  40:06

Okay. Well, we appreciate you being on the podcast. Thanks for being here.

 

Chris Brown  40:09

Cool. Take care.

 

Kim Howard  40:11

This has been the Let’s Talk EMDR podcast with our guest, Christopher Brown. Visit www.EMDRIA.org for more information about EMDR therapy, or to use our Find an EMDR Therapist Directory with more than 17,000 therapists available. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this free podcast wherever you listen. Thanks for being here today.